Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Hardware inside and outside of the ECU
Kavabanga
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Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by Kavabanga »

Hi everybody!
Now i`m trying to make my Ural motorcycle, which was made in 1981, better, much better. (DON`T ASK ME WHY, BECAUSE I DON`T KNOW! :lol: )
For example, i invented AMT system based on Arduino, which can be install on usual mechanical transmisson. (it all was started like a student project. Nobody knew, that it will be a something serious). So, if this system will uninstalled, transmission will be mechanical again and nobody No one can guess that this system once stood here. Today i have ETB based on Keihin carburators and servomotors for RC toys :D I know, it sound funny, but it works good! To control the ETB, i use one potenciometer. I use potenciometers to take information about clutch position, position of gear shift lever and so one. Also i modeled and made clutch actuator by 3D printer (see photos). Controller know information about rotation of crankshaft and throttle position and using this data calculate the load of engine and make a decision, which gear need to turn on. (Make a cick-down, for example) Now system work in test mode. It can start, "change" gears, but i can`t find powerfull electric motor, which can independently change gears (i must help system by my leg to change the gear. But software work good and makes the right decision)
So, that block was for people, who interested in :)
And now i wanna use RusEFI to make fuel injection (all kind of carburators on this motorcycle is EVIL!!!!! :x :x :x )
Of course, i wanna use ETB for connect by Can-bus RusEFI and my AMT ECU and be happy (when AMT will need to change gear, RusEFI will "get ETB position down". After all procedures, RusEFI will "get ETB position back") . Also, i wanna use this motorcycle for long travels and, of course, i wanna have cruise control. Maybe i will use Raspberry Pi for detect speed limit on the road by camera. Raspberry will use Can-bus for give data to RusEFI, and RusEFI will limit the speed of motorcycle by ETB (Today it is just dreams...) But i need to start make something to make dreams reality tomorrow :)
So, let me tell you about engine what i have:
4 stroke, 2 cylinders, oppozit engine with two carburators (one carburator for one cylinder), cam ignition. That is all. (Look at the pictures)
I wanna use two ETB, two ignition coils, two fuel injectors (of course), two temperature sensor. Most likely i will use one O2-sensor, because O2-sesnor, which need RusEFI is too expensive, and two MAP-sensors. Also, i wanna use just camshaft position sensor, without crankshaft position sensor.
Model and make two Inlet connections, which will assemble with ETB, MAP-sensor is not big problem for me. Also, i can make metal trigger gear to install on the camshaft.
So, what is my question:
1. What kind of ECU is better for use in my project (Frankenso, Prometheus maybe)?
2. How many teeth must have trigger gear on the camshaft?
3. Who that thinks on this about? :roll: Maybe my variant of realisation is bad? Who can offer better options? :)
And finally: Please, don`t ask me why i am doing that. I don`t know answer :D
And of course, sorry for my stupid english :)
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Abricos
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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by Abricos »

огонь ёпти ...
only my recommendation is to replace chinese servo (which are very weak) ...
on used by motorcycles on the exhaust system strong servo motors ...
and it is very cheap and good quality ...
it is only a motor and a potentiometer you will need to separate H-brige driver to controll ...
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Abricos
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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by Abricos »

how does your ignition work?
magneto ?
you don't have a trigger wheel and a hall sensor?
minimum you need an intake manifold air temperature sensor, oxygen sensor, fuel pump, injector, throttle position potenciometor .
you have air cooling of the motor?
you do not have a radiator and antifreeze?
maybe use oil temperature instead of anti-freeze temperature ?

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AndreyB
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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by AndreyB »

Related to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnepr_M-72?
Kavabanga wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:52 pm
1. What kind of ECU is better for use in my project (Frankenso, Prometheus maybe)?
2. How many teeth must have trigger gear on the camshaft?
1. I am not objective since I sell assembled Frankenso. You need to make your decision, sounds like you really need to plan your build better. Are you considering to assemble? How much soldering experience do you have? Did you ever solder SMD?

2. I do not know. 3? 4? 1?
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Kavabanga
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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by Kavabanga »

Abricos wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:16 pm
how does your ignition work?
magneto ?
you don't have a trigger wheel and a hall sensor?
minimum you need an intake manifold air temperature sensor, oxygen sensor, fuel pump, injector, throttle position potenciometor .
you have air cooling of the motor?
you do not have a radiator and antifreeze?
maybe use oil temperature instead of anti-freeze temperature ?
1. Usual Ural has a cam ignition, but i installed other ignition with hall sensor. Now i have trigger wheel with two teeth which installed on camshaft. In this engine top dead center (as a lower dead center) is on tho cylinders at once. Ignition system has ignition coil for two cylinders. And if we have spark, it comes to all two cylinders, but at one cylinder we have ignition and at the second cylinder we have end of exhaust stroke. With trigger gear, which i have now ECU can know about top dead center. That is all. Microcontroller do not know what cylinder has exhaust stroke and must make spark on two cylinders. If i will use this trigger gear with Rus EFI or other ECU i will not make I can not make a phased injection, for example. To make phased injection and give spark to cylinder, which it really need, i must make trigger gear, which can give microcontroller more information, so to speak. I think it must be gear with formula X-Y teeth (i think, minimum it must be 4-1 teeth, maybe). But now what value of X and Y will be better i dont know. (I will think about it)
2. Of course, i know about temperature and other sensors, fuel pump and other elements.
3. I have air cooling of the motor (I hope, i`ll make oil cooling also)
4. Now i don`t have radiator (look at 3, maybe it will be) and i will not have anti-freeze because i will not make water cooling :)
5. Of course, i`ll think about it, but something tells me that oil temperature sensor is a not good variant to detect temperature of cylinders. I tink use two temperature sensor on cylinders is better (one sensor for one cylinder), isn`t it?

Kavabanga
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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by Kavabanga »

russian wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:32 am
Related to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnepr_M-72?

1. I am not objective since I sell assembled Frankenso. You need to make your decision, sounds like you really need to plan your build better. Are you considering to assemble? How much soldering experience do you have? Did you ever solder SMD?

2. I do not know. 3? 4? 1?
0. Yes, it related to M-72, because engine, which i have is something like new generation of M-72 engine

1. I think a can use Frankenso or ECU, based on Frankenso, because all i need is connect to Frankenso +1 ETB and +1 MAP-sensor (if i will use two MAP-sensors). I considering to assemble if i won`t have a choise. I have never solder SMD, but many people in my university doing that good and in bad situation they can help me.
Air intake system on my bike is simple: Air filter -> Two tubes, comes to two carburators -> cylinders. That is all. (Look at the picture)
I. If i`ll have fortune, i wanna make that system: Air filter -> Two tubes, comes to two ETB`s-> injectors -> cylinders.
But i have problem with searching small ETB`s. (Also, with opportunity to project and soldering special ECU)
II. So, i think, i can use one ETB and make system easier: Air filter -> one ETB -> two tubes, comes to injectors -> cylinders. But it all will looks bad. Very bad... But i`ll think something
Can i use Frankenso for 1 st variant of system? What i need make with Frankenso? Maybe i dont need to think about it and just use Frankenso with one ETB?
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Abricos
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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by Abricos »

What is diameter of your throttle??

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AndreyB
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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by AndreyB »

Kavabanga wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:54 am
Can i use Frankenso for 1 st variant of system?
I am available to answer simple questions, I do not have brain capacity to execute any gap analysis these days :(

Please clarify how much time have you spend looking at https://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Hardware_Frankenso_board

It looks like there is a huge overlap between your potential needs and Frankenso. Also considering how much you can adjust Frankenso I would be surprised if something would be missing - but again, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caveat_emptor
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Kavabanga
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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by Kavabanga »

Abricos wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:17 pm
What is diameter of your throttle??
Keihin carburators has 30mm throttle diameter, but injection hole on the cylinder head has 28mm diameter. I have never seen 30mm ETB. 40 is a minimum, what i seen. But, i think it is too big for one cylinder, isnt?

Abricos
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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by Abricos »

in the middle it is divided into two pieces...
and you have on one side ETB and 2 throttle ...
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AndreyB
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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by AndreyB »

Abricos please edit the message above and add diameter information. Part number of vehicle source information would be also nice in my opinion :)
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Abricos
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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by Abricos »

40 mm diameter of throttle
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Kavabanga
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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by Kavabanga »

Abricos wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:33 am
in the middle it is divided into two pieces...
and you have on one side ETB and 2 throttle ...
11 Yamaha YZF R6r R6 Throttle Bodies Body305
That is good, but i have got oppozit engine. I need to have single ETB for once cylinder. There is no point to have one piece of Yamaha ETB with two throttles, because i can use car 60mm ETB (what will be cheaper than Yamaha ETB) and it all variants will looks terrible
I think, i need use something like that (BMW R.... ETB), because it has two cylinders oppozit engine also and every cylinder has single ETB
But how to be with Frankenso? :?:
It hasn`t big count of analog inputs to control this count of potenciometers and sensors...
Maybe i need use other microcontroller just to control to ETB and that microcontroller will give data about throttles position to RusEFI by Can-bus or RusEFI will connect to one of TPS on each ETB anb will "think" that it is two TPS on usual throttle bodies? So, this variant will alow me to use Frankenso board. What do you think about it?
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OrchardPerformance
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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by OrchardPerformance »

You might want to take a look at the ford 1l throttle bodies, they are 40mm single ETBs and cheap and common.

Edit - @russian has just noted your in Russia so parts may be a bit different to what we have in Europe.

Throttles I refer to come from the 1l GTDI engines used in the fiesta and focus from 2012 to 2018.
The one we have tried with a rusEFI successfully was PN - CM5G-9F991-FA
Now keeping MRE and Proteus in stock in the UK, PM or slack for details.

Kavabanga
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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by Kavabanga »

OrchardPerformance wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:49 pm
You might want to take a look at the ford 1l throttle bodies, they are 40mm single ETBs and cheap and common.
Oh, thank you very much for your advice, but after very long search, i founded ETB, what i need, look here:
https://www.bosch-motorsport-shop.com.au/electronic-throttle-body-32mm-bore

But what i will make with sensors? More precisely, with a count of them, because i have more sensors, than analog inputs on Frankenso
@Russian proposes to divide them on two groups:
Slow and fast events. Slow events, like WBO`s, temperature sensors connect to Frankenso by SPI, and fast, like MAP`s, APPS, TPS`s, can be connected to analog inputs.
It was first variant.
The second - is CAN-bus. Frankenso can recieve data from sensors by CAN-bus using other unit, which will recieve data from sensors and send them to Frankenso. But, i can,t imagine, how to make that, because, as i know, to this system work properly, it need hard time limit message system. (Hope, somebody, who read it cand understand me) Maybe somebody has other ideas?

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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by mck1117 »

Kavabanga wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:42 am
But what i will make with sensors? More precisely, with a count of them, because i have more sensors, than analog inputs on Frankenso
What's the full list of sensors you plan to run on your bike?
Kavabanga wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:42 am
The second - is CAN-bus. Frankenso can recieve data from sensors by CAN-bus using other unit, which will recieve data from sensors and send them to Frankenso. But, i can,t imagine, how to make that, because, as i know, to this system work properly, it need hard time limit message system. (Hope, somebody, who read it cand understand me) Maybe somebody has other ideas?
There are some medium-to-long term ideas around making an architecture like this work. Essentially the ability to select "internal" vs "CAN" for each sensor, and all of the appropriate error handling around signal loss, etc.

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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by Kavabanga »

mck1117 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:37 pm
What's the full list of sensors you plan to run on your bike?
Engine is oppozit and has air cooling (i also wanna make oil cooling, but if i will use just oil temperature sensor, ECU will not be able to have true information about temperature of every cylinder, because usually i ride with a sidecar and one cylinder, which installed near sidecar, always has lower temperature, than other)
And i wanna use:
2 ETB`s
2 MAP sensors
2 temperature sensors
2 wideband O2 sensors
2 ignition coils
1 knock sensor
1 APPS
1 intake air temperature sensor
1 camshaft position sensor (NO crankshaft position sensor)
But i wanna make cruise control, speed limit and something other, which will make motorcycle comfortable in long rides and now i think about special ECU, which will drive just ETB`s and send to RusEFI by CAN messages about throttles position.
Other sensors and other (Fuel pump, coils, injectors etc.) can be connected directly to RusEFI
I think, it is the best scheme in my situation.
Maybe somebody has other ideas?

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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by mck1117 »

So for analog sensors, I count:
4x TPS (2 per ETB)
2x MAP
2x oil temperature
1x intake air temperature
2x "pedal" input
2x wideband

Which is a count of 13, which could maybe fit on Frankenso with some rewiring, but might be more hassle than its worth. If you could temporarily live with a single oil temperature and MAP sensors, then it will fit on frankenso.

Kavabanga
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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by Kavabanga »

Hi everybody!
During Slack is falling down, i decided to make post here
So, what i've got now:
I'm planning to test soldered by myself Frankenso in ignition control task (just ignition yet). i'll use carburetor's LADA hall sensor and ignition coil with two high voltage vire (they using in LADA 1111 OKA. It has two cylinder engine. Like on my motorcycle). But coil has less, than 1 Ohm resistance (0.9-1). Can i use that coil with Frankneso or i have to find some other?

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AndreyB
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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by AndreyB »

such low resistance probably means not smart coil?
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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by Kavabanga »

AndreyB wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 12:50 am
such low resistance probably means not smart coil?
If i understood correctly, no, it's not smart coil. They are using in LADA with carburetor and "simple", "not smart" ignition with cam and transistor or capacitor.

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kb1gtt
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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by kb1gtt »

Keep in mind the primary side of the coil will get to around 400V to 600V when you spark. You need insulation that can sustain this under your operating environment. AKA foggy day or cold morning with small amounts of condensation, it needs to not arc over.
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Kavabanga
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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by Kavabanga »

kb1gtt wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 1:14 am
Keep in mind the primary side of the coil will get to around 400V to 600V when you spark. You need insulation that can sustain this under your operating environment. AKA foggy day or cold morning with small amounts of condensation, it needs to not arc over.
Sorry, i dont understand, what do you mean...
Maybe i need just change the coil?
Later i'm planning to use two coil (one coil for one cylinder). I can use that variant now.
What coil is better?

But
I've got igniter and i can use it with simple coil.
Is it good variant?

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kb1gtt
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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by kb1gtt »

The igniter will see around 400v to 600v on the coils primary side.
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Kavabanga
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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by Kavabanga »

I have a kind of success with ETB's adaptation. You can see video :slightly_smiling_face:

Coils tested, injector tested, hall sensor tested. (By console. Not with engine)


I still dont have fuel pump, temperature sensors.
i've got some questions.
I think about two options now, both are including 2 ETB, 2 injectors, 2 coils:
Use 1 temperature sensor on one of cylinders and 1 oxygen sensor. But where is better i need install? I've got 2 tubes in exhaust system, which doesn't have common points. And i wanna use that exhaust system because i like it very much... So, i can make 1 common point (2 tubes, comes from cylinder's heads comes to one point, where installed WBO sensor, and then thay goes to 2 separate tubes again) or i can use sensor just on the one tube. But i guess is not good for engine management
Use 2 temperature sensors and 2 oxygen sensor and install them to both cylinders. But what about management? Can ECU control them like two separate 1 cylinder engines with common APPS, camshaft position sensor (i don't have crank sensor on that engine) and tuning from TS?
I even don't understand, what variant is impossible to work..

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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by AndreyB »

Wow, these 3D printed manifolds look AMAZING! Do you plan anything made of metal for structural support considering all the vibrations? I am not a ME no idea if plastic would hold or not.

Someone smarter should respond about CLT and WBO sensor vs sensors.
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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by Kavabanga »

AndreyB wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 10:11 pm
Wow, these 3D printed manifolds look AMAZING! Do you plan anything made of metal for structural support considering all the vibrations? I am not a ME no idea if plastic would hold or not.
I'll cast it from metal in future. It's just testing. When all will ready, i'm planning make metal copies of those manifolds

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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by Kavabanga »

This is a 3rd generation
See also:
1st generation:


2nd generation:


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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by Kavabanga »

Hi everyone!
So, today my progress is:
1. I casted aluminium injection channels, they're waiting for machining now
2. I've got two working ETB's
3. Still have problems with CJ125&LSU 4.9.... I'll make a post in the CJ125's thread


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Re: Old Russian motorcycle fuel injection

Post by AndreyB »

Wow the metal casting thing is really cool!
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