EFI for small engines

Hardware inside and outside of the ECU
jbiplane
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane »

>Are there TB's with injector bungs
No better be flexible in injector placement

At moment external. In development with perfecting batteryless
Power connector required

FAI injectors are of interest
Fai - dosing system permanently spray fuel by micro doses. Dont related to crank rpm.
Work MUCH worse than Stihl injection. More close to electronic carburetor like Stihl M-tronic (permanent regulation of main jet needle by electrical valve)
Please read my attachment few posts before
Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:10 am
related Stihl injection. It is real top of the top in small engines EFI
Batteryless, auto calibrating after few years dont use, use just 2 sensors combined pressure-t, and crank
Mechanical pump, only nozzle consume about 1,5 watt of electricity

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kb1gtt
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by kb1gtt »

I saw the Stihl links above. I recall they did a version of direct injection. Direct into the cyl, but not while under pressure. The 2 stroke made this kind of interesting, as it keeps the fuel/oil out of the crank case.

A design would require knowledge of what TB and exactly what injector it is to be connected to. Currently the plan is very vague and lacks many key details about what is desired. What engine will it attach to and how will it attach? Scooter, motorcycle, generator, they all have different physical mechanism for how they are connected an would operate. If we do not have a planned and obtainable test platform, we will not have much success in a design.
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane »

kb1gtt wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:18 pm
I saw the Stihl links above. I recall they did a version of direct injection. Direct into the cyl, but not while under pressure.
No. Stihl inject into crancase. I contacted many prospective customers. The most demanded is 2-strokes. Why. One sample.
We easily reach 257 g/(hp⋅h) with MegaSquirt 2 extra on 2-stroke, the same engine with best carburetor gives 340 g/(hp⋅h)

Peoples dream of something like Stihl, but adjustable for different engine sizes and types. Batteryless could be next step.
Now enough TO HAVE SYSTEM WHICH SPEND BELOW 35W JN INJECTION AND IGNITION OF 1 AND 2 CYLINDER ENGINES.
Stihl use mechanical pump actuated by pressure variation in crancase with pressure just 0.1 bar. They spray in crancase in moment where there is negative pressure 0.45bar.

My vision:
1. External battery of different uses instead of 12V can have 9V...18V. System functionality should not be depended of Voltage precision.
Hermetic 12V Power connector. Other wires go out of ECU box about 500mm.

2. Color or splashing led indication. Says
- ECU on, engine off
- Cranking detected
- Engine running
- Check engine if any failure

3. I suggest use to use classical pump but with PWM regulation. From fuel tank should go only one hose. 0,7 ... 3 bar fuel pressure adjustable by softwae from interface of TunerStudio like for MegaSquirt 3. We cannot afford spend more than 12w on just fuel pump.

4. Can be installed on any serial throttle body instead of TPS. Different throttle bodies have different bolt patterns for TPS. So it will be just adapter plate - part of ECU enclosure. I can produce cheap throttle bodies for any 20cc...500cc engines.

5. Any 2-stroke engine could be test platform. I can test and tune up system on my engines
http://www.flame-power.com/en/direct-en/dvs-en and prepare bolt on instalation kits for
- 2 and 4 stroke scooters
- paramotors
- 1 and 2-cylinder industrial engines

6. ECU should have internal connector to attach retach ready ttl-bluetooth and ttl-wifi modules and plastic lid to have 10+ meter range.

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane »

AS5030-ATST magnetic sensor gives 1,4% angle error if rotation center of magnet deviate 0,25 mm from ideal. It is very acceptable.

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kb1gtt
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by kb1gtt »

I suggest you try just the sensor. Make 10 pcb's and connect then to the TB. Then simple read the Position out of them. You will then see the issues and you will then see why they are not more commonly used.
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane »

We tryed 2 units which get in arduino shop in my city, work fine with rectangular magnet.

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by kb1gtt »

What platform can developers get their hands onto for development use? I'm thinking it would be cool to have a DIY inverter style generator. We have many of these snowblower motors kicking around. I could see that powering a 12V alternator, which powers a battery, then battery powers an AC inverter.

How do i get a small engine, which can generate 12V for an inverter? I have a 10A 120VAC inverter. As well there are inverters which are lower watts. So an engine as large as 1.5kW or smaller.
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane »

Seems the most demanded will be
- stationar 4-stroke engines used for emergency electricity generation (yes DIY inverter style generator could be good)
- scooter 2-strokes 50cc and 90cc
- small outboard engines
- rc model gas engines
- paramotor engines
...
I saw you already have showblower engine to test with?
I can help with mechanics and produce range of throttle for engines with displacement 20...250cc per cylinder with power range 0,2...70 hp

I produce 2 cylinder 2-stroke engines 183...344cc


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kb1gtt
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by kb1gtt »

Cheap generators are great when you do not care about the devices they are connected to. I know many TV's, cell phone chargers, radio's, etc which have been destroyed by cheap generators.

Inverter style generators are great as they handle rapidly changes load very well, as well the generator consumes much less gas. The generator slows down, or sometimes even turns off if there is no load. Then either changes speed or self starts when required. I could see how one could be used to power a house and if the grid drops, it could startup with out dropping the house power at all.

How could a snow blower motor, or any other motor generate 12V? It would be great if the 12V generator could also function as the starter. The 12V that you sometimes get on a snowblower motor does not provide anywhere enough power for anything significant. You are lucky to get 60W our of that kind of 12V. How do we get more like 1.5kW out of it? Magnets and coils of wire doesn't seem to hard. I guess a 150A alternator might also work. How do we get a test platform?

I would prefer a motor with an oil filter, and similar features found on motors that need to operate with more reliability than a snow blower.
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by AndreyB »

I wonder if maybe @abricos did not have a chance to type his proposal using a bit more words. There is a chance that @abricos was relying on our telepathic abilities?

Maybe @abricos was saying that cheap generator is a great convenient representation of a scooter engine in a light small form factor without wheels?
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by Abricos »

If you need only 12v to charge battery ...
You have regular coil and magnet ...
This what I have ...
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by Abricos »

But it's not super powerful ...
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by kb1gtt »

50W is too small. For a generator you need more like 1500W to be useful. I like the idea, but the magnet and coils are too small.
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by Abricos »

kb1gtt wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:11 pm
50W is too small. For a generator you need more like 1500W to be useful. I like the idea, but the magnet and coils are too small.
if you tell me what you need ?
(((((20...250cc per cylinder with power range 0,2...70 hp 2 cylinder 2-stroke engines 183...344cc))))

fo me 20cc to 350cc engine size it's like from like earth and moon ...
the weight of the generator or motor is important ???
what is the power needed from the generator???
is cost important ???

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kb1gtt
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by kb1gtt »

I have snow blower motor and 10a 120v inverter. So I guess I'm looking for 1200 Watts from drive shaft at 3krpm. How do I generate 1200 Watts of 12v at 3krpm? I guess price should be under $500 as I can but one for $500. A truck alternator is probably good but I need to mount it some how.
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by Abricos »

kb1gtt wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:04 am
I have snow blower motor and 10a 120v inverter. So I guess I'm looking for 1200 Watts from drive shaft at 3krpm. How do I generate 1200 Watts of 12v at 3krpm? I guess price should be under $500 as I can but one for $500. A truck alternator is probably good but I need to mount it some how.
Used this adapter plate to second pulley remove and install alternator
https://www.amazon.com/BLAST-LED-Predator-Converter-Sprocket/dp/B06XPSZXLP
140 amps VW JETTA ALTERNATOR 07K903023A
https://www.ebay.com/itm/383457916880

I don't know what engine you have ...
Som ideas
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane »

All EFI System supply should rely on small onboard generator or small external battery.
We have max 30W or less for whole system, no more than 10w on fuel pump, and about 15w on all remaining...

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Re: EFI for small engines

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The injectors, coils, etc are minimal watts. The generator is just to make a useful development platform which can have various loads added to it. The 12V is for the inverter generator, not for fuel injection.

Yes brackets like that would be great. I see amazon link you provided also notes commonly ordered with this engine, which is less than $120. My engine is questionable at best. Might be best to purchase an engine.
https://www.amazon.com/Predator-212cc-Horizontal-Shaft-Engine/dp/B005U31ORU/ref=pd_bxgy_img_2/147-4872417-1923945?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B005U31ORU&pd_rd_r=69508cdd-317b-4bee-9253-bf29db4f328b&pd_rd_w=Z60ez&pd_rd_wg=eMjrX&pf_rd_p=9d05ca86-8760-4334-a147-e5d5836a8859&pf_rd_r=MZ6BE37WVRTJS9NTDVN5&psc=1&refRID=MZ6BE37WVRTJS9NTDVN5

Yuck, the price of that alternator kit. I think we should be able to find a better alternator kit.
https://www.performance670.com/product-detail/flywheel-side-40-amp-alternator-kit
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Re: EFI for small engines

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How do I attach an alternator to it? I would need a method for adding a load to it.
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane »

kb1gtt wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:14 am
How do I attach an alternator to it? I would need a method for adding a load to it.
I use simple to make load - try to google wooden bar dyno https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2KGh3Bm238&t=16s

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by Abricos »

kb1gtt wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:14 am
How do I attach an alternator to it? I would need a method for adding a load to it.
every time you add a light bulb ... You increases the load on the generator ... So 100watt bulb you need 10 ...
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Re: EFI for small engines

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Why would I make a dyno which does not preform a useful function, when I could make a dyno that also has a useful function? I prefer an electrical load, as it allows variable loads, which can be adjusted rapidly, and can get the engine into loads that are harder to obtain under different methods.

Surely there has to be someone out their that sells a motor with an alternator, or a kit that allows you to do it. So far I've only found misc kits that likely need lots of work to make them fit. I have minimal time and need to basically just bolt things together.
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane »

Then possible use portable electrical generator or water pump. Both adjustable.

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by mck1117 »

kb1gtt wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:32 am
I suggest you try just the sensor. Make 10 pcb's and connect then to the TB. Then simple read the Position out of them. You will then see the issues and you will then see why they are not more commonly used.
Hall effect angle sensors for throttle body are extremely common. Every Ford sold today has one.

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by kb1gtt »

I don't think our diy quality controls match Ford's quality controls. There are many difficult situations to deal with. I suggest doing what was and still is the dominant technology for TPS sensors.
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by kb1gtt »

I've seen people do something like this for a DIY portable welder
http://veggear.blogspot.com/2009/06/home-made-diy-lawnmower-alternator.html

Are there any gas powered welders that have the above basic setup? I find the below but that's above my desired $ range.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M5E5KTQ?tag=duckduckgo-d-20&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1

I guess I could get a junk yard lawn mower and salvage the engine. However I would still need pulleys that fit, as well as pulleys that generate the proper RPM for the alternator. Alternators need to spin at the proper speed. AKA your car alternator spins faster than your crank. It just seems like a huge amount of engineering to do something that I should be able to purchase.
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by kb1gtt »

Hmmm, this one is closer to my tolerable price range. It would be great if I saw an oil filter. It still seems larger than I need. Can I find a smaller / cheaper one?
https://www.amazon.com/HIT-Surge-Generator-Stick-Welder/dp/B07RTGR3LG/ref=sr_1_15?dchild=1&keywords=engine+driven+tig&qid=1584692887&s=automotive&sr=1-15
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by Abricos »

kb1gtt wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:35 am
Hmmm, this one is closer to my tolerable price range. It would be great if I saw an oil filter. It still seems larger than I need. Can I find a smaller / cheaper one?
https://www.amazon.com/HIT-Surge-Generator-Stick-Welder/dp/B07RTGR3LG/ref=sr_1_15?dchild=1&keywords=engine+driven+tig&qid=1584692887&s=automotive&sr=1-15
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