EFI for small engines

Hardware inside and outside of the ECU
jbiplane
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane »

Better start with ECU itself. Test platform is secondary...

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by Abricos »

jbiplane wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:27 pm
Better start with ECU itself. Test platform is secondary...
Good luck ...
keep us informed ... it will be very interesting for us to see your video and numbers ...

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane »

At moment one engineer makes for me 2 variant of ECU. 4+4 and integrated to throttle. But I dont know schematics...

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kb1gtt
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by kb1gtt »

A hardware platform is required to answer many design questions.
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane »

It would be nice is somebody make "nano EFI" hardware compatible with Tuner Studio...

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kb1gtt
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by kb1gtt »

@jbiplane It would be nice if you contributed to the effort instead of just trying to get us to provide free labor for you.
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane »

I hoped it will be usefull project. The idea was somebody of local team will design and sell open source nano boards. I can help in test and make available complete kits (milled and casted parts). Seems nobody are interested, so I'll continue with freelancer (speeduino compatible stand alone board) I already found. I got from him first 4 ECU, next week other 4. After I buy 10+ units I will get all project info. But it only for "insurance" and will continue order from him. Each PCB for 4 ignition and 4 injection with harness and bluetooth cost me 75 USD.
2+2 smaller board will a bit cheaper. Remain open to cooperation in future.
But now I have reliable supplier and no clear reasons choose something else...

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kb1gtt
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by kb1gtt »

I lack motivation as my 15 year old snow blower starts on the 2nd pull in the dead of winter. It's reliable simple, and just plain works. I see little advantage of adding many new components that lower the MTBF. So I'm lacking motivation.

I'm glad to hear you have a solution, it's good to hear people hustling to make a product to get out there. I hope you do well with it. If you have some project that better motivates me I'd be more interested in allocating resources to the effort.

I would like to see an DIY multi fuel inverter generator with oil filter, that starts and stops automatically. That is something that interests me. I see the electronics as semi-important for the auto-start features.
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kb1gtt
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by kb1gtt »

Ebay say the black and yellow HIT 4kW tig / generator noted above will be here with an Estimated delivery Fri, Mar 27 - Fri, Apr 03.

I would like to figure out how to make this electric start, perhaps a drill and socket. Any suggestions would be welcome. I would also like to figure out how to add an oil filter to it. I'm assuming it does not have one now.
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mck1117
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by mck1117 »

kb1gtt wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:36 am
I would like to figure out how to make this electric start, perhaps a drill and socket.
Doing this to my lawnmower was as easy as drilling a hole in the plastic cover over the end of the crank.
kb1gtt wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:36 am
I would also like to figure out how to add an oil filter to it. I'm assuming it does not have one now.
If it's splash oiled, like most small engines are, this could be quite difficult. It probably has no pump at all, so there isn't really anywhere to put a filter.

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by kb1gtt »

Hmmm, the better half would probably be happier with me if I made this one work. It hasn't started for years, but has been dry and it used to work, so it should now. It has some carb problem last time it ran. Basically I had to run it as the floats would overflow if it was not running. It's already electric start and in my garage, and virus free. Once the new one gets here, the first thing it's going to do is to sit for at least 9 days. So I could start dubbing with this one now.
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jbiplane
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane »

Speeduino news
2 injection+ 2ignition channels 47x25mm board
Image

A bit bigger board
low-cost and mini-sized ECU for speeduino firmware (45 x 55 mm)
4 high impedance injectors
4 active ignition coils or 1 passive ignition coil with separate ground plane
1 crankshaft sensor with VR-conditioner
1 hall input for camshaft sensor
6 analog inputs: CLT, IAT, TPS, BAT, LMM, MAP
1 optional baro sensor MPXH6400A on bottom side
1 digital input for disco swaggering (aka. launch control)
Onboard Wideband Lambda Controller with Bosch CJ125 (LSU 4.9)
1 fuel pump out
1 idle valve out
1 tacho out
1 boost out
USB programming interface with CP2104

Image

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AndreyB
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by AndreyB »

Looks tight :) Wow.

Have you fabricated this yet? Have you started Speeduino on it yet?

There was something about Speeduino requiring hardware bootloader chip? I did not get this completely, maybe that only applied to stm32?
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jbiplane
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane »

AndreyB wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:37 pm
Have you fabricated this yet? Have you started Speeduino on it yet?
Me not. But original creator testing boards at moment and all info available at https://github.com/oelprinz-org/BlitzboxBL49sp.
Image
I asked for Quote chinese companies. They give the price 830USD including express delivery for 10 PCBA.
I want when project will be more tested and slighly modify it.
- take out onboard Wide band O2 controller
- retrace it to 2 layer from 4-layer getting 48x48mm 2ignition+2injection board
- place on board magnetic TPS and IAT
- add second MAP for barometric correction
- mill by CNC cases
This PCBA will fit to 50USD objective and I will produce 20 test pieces.

At moment Speeduino fans sucseed to made specific coding for racing 2-stroke engines and all this info avalilable.
final code changes in the Speeduino main block of code that have the staged injection swapping cleanly from the primary injector to the secondary injectors with some built in hysteresis to inhibit fluttering between injectors.

//.............................................. Rob2
//uint32_t inj_openThistime_uS = 0;
//uint32_t PWlastTime = 0; //
//uint32_t PWthisTime = 0; // these need to be coppied into the definition area near the top of the page.

else if(configPage10.stagingMode == STAGING_MODE_AUTO)
{
currentStatus.PW1 = tempPW1;
if(tempPW1 > pwLimit ){PWlastTime = (tempPW1 * 0.9); PWthisTime = tempPW1;}// tempPW3 has to drop 10% to avoid unwanted short term jumping between two states (ie; small and big injectors) - hysteresis
//If automatic mode, the primary injectors are used all the way up to their limit (Configured by the pulsewidth limit setting)
//If they exceed their limit, the whole duty is passed onto the secondaries

if(PWthisTime > PWlastTime)
{
uint32_t extraPW = tempPW1; //The open time must be added below because tempPW1 does not include an open time.
currentStatus.PW1 = 0; // Completely turn off the primary injector.
currentStatus.PW3 = ((extraPW * staged_req_fuel_mult_sec) / staged_req_fuel_mult_pri); //Swap to the secondary injector and convert the fuel amount from primary injector scaling to secondary
inj_openThistime_uS = (inj_opentime_uS * 0.5);
currentStatus.PW3 += inj_openThistime_uS; // adjustment of inj_opentime_uS because there are two injectors fired together as one logical injector. This value may need adjusting.
PWthisTime = tempPW1;
}
else { currentStatus.PW3 = 0; PWthisTime = 0;} //If tempPW1 and tempPW3 < pwLImit it means that the entire fuel load can be handled by the primaries. Simply set the secondaries to 0
}
//................................................ Rob2

If one day I will see NanoRusEFI with same functionality which will possible buy under 100 USD and sized below 70x70mm I will definitelly try out :)

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane »

Could someone roughly estimate dimensions for simplest nanoRusEFI board to be integrated to throttle body
The board should be reduced MRI to:

2 injectors
2 active ignition coils or 1 passive ignition coil with separate ground plane
Primary VR or Hall input (configurable with few resistor changes)
Secondary Hall input
analog inputs: CLT and EGT
1 fuel pump out
1 idle valve out
1 tacho out
USB programming interface with PL2303SA (Tunerstudio)

on board
- 2 MAP on PCB
- IAT
- Instead of external TPS onboard sensor feeling throttle rotation

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AndreyB
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by AndreyB »

C'mon, let's start giving something not just asking asking and asking? :)

Please tell us more - why are you looking for a nano rusEFI design? What are the issues you are facing with your existing 47x25mm board?
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Gepro
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by Gepro »

I am a little confused about PL2303SA , does the STM32 doesn't have onboard usb ?

The tacho out can be taken from smart coils. No need of more than 2 high side.

It's a funny board, but why put energy in it ? For price ? And on paper, there isn't a lot of difference between speeduino and RusEFI.

One is atmega and the other stm32. The two are ARM, the two are 3.3v and 5v tolerant. And the two runs under TunerStudio.

You can put a STM32F405RGT6 instead of your atmega, and it will do the same with RusEFI stuff.

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by kb1gtt »

The MRE is very small as is. The TLE8888 chip is fairly small. Sure we could save some space with different less capable chips, but not very much. Perhaps the size of your thumb nail. Why is MRE to large? My lawn mower and snow blower wheel's are not going to buckle under the weight of MRE. Perhaps you are thinking drone so weight is a concern? Is your concern LxWxH or weight?
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane »

kb1gtt wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:35 pm
Perhaps you are thinking drone so weight is a concern? Is your concern LxWxH or weight
No, I have solution for drones, use Russian clone of К1986ВЕ92У. But market for EFI drones is about 0.

My oblective is old small carburator engines. And make bolt on kit with minimal modification of engine.
I looking for someone who will help me in electronic, and I will do "box product" = 7 instalation kits of engines I have in hands:
aircraft model engines 40...120 cc
50cc 2stroke scooters
172cc 2-stroke paramotor
Stationar Honda GX and clones 4-stroke
Yamaha 9...15hp outboard 2-stroke inline
Yamaha 9...15hp outboard 4-stroke inline
Snowmobile 2-stroke

PCB should be integrated to throttle body. Most of sensors as well.
1. The most important is electriclty consumption.
Me personally can make fuel pump assembly which consume below 0.8A using BLDC pump + ESC.
I can make fuel pressure as function of atmosphere pressure and themperature.
2. The second is dimensions Me personally made 60x60mm board where all components are on one side.
Objective is to make 50x50mm board or less placing ignition and injection keys on bottom side of PCB
Image
3. Have as few wires as possible
4. Use small ignition coils typically used for CDI ignition
5. End user instalation must be as simple as possible. User should know nothing about tuner studio and lambda sensors.
6. ECU should work by Speed dencity and Alpha-N only
7. Lambra used only for set up

If anyone can help implement electronics I will produce remaining mechanical and electrical part and do numerous tests
using test bench of local univercity.

jbiplane@gmail.com
Valery

mck1117
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by mck1117 »

jbiplane wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:34 am
If anyone can help implement electronics I will produce remaining mechanical and electrical part and do numerous tests
using test bench of local univercity.
I think many people would be happy to build such a board, but I don't think you'd like the hourly rate for one of us to do that. People here are willing to do free work for stuff that the rusEfi project (or us individually) want to do, but if somebody wants something else and doesn't want to do it themselves, it's not going to be free.

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane »

mck1117 wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:38 am
I don't think you'd like the hourly rate for one of us to do that.
Exept for PCB itself I have to create remaining hardware kit. At moment I will implement on Speeduino by my engineer. One PCB would cost me 48USD baced on 20unit odrers including delivery tending to be less for bigger batches. I am willing to donate Speeduino comutity 12USD Royalty.
I am planning to fit ready to use kit to 200USD including worldwide delivery, warrancy and other spences. Seems there no any chance to do something similar like NanoRusEFI.

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by mck1117 »

jbiplane wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:55 am
mck1117 wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:38 am
I don't think you'd like the hourly rate for one of us to do that.
Exept for PCB itself I have to create remaining hardware kit. At moment I will implement on Speeduino by my engineer. One PCB would cost me 48USD baced on 20unit odrers including delivery tending to be less for bigger batches. I am willing to donate Speeduino comutity 12USD Royalty.
I am planning to fit ready to use kit to 200USD including worldwide delivery, warrancy and other spences. Seems there no any chance to do something similar like NanoRusEFI.
Could nanoRusEfi exist? Absolutely! Do I want to design that board for free? Nah, not really. A first revision would take me maybe 8 hours of work (design only, no testing or assembly!), and at current consulting rates for an embedded hardware engineer, that's north of $1000 US.

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane »

mck1117 wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:02 am
(design only, no testing or assembly!), and at current consulting rates for an embedded hardware engineer, that's north of $1000 US.
1. Lets imagine I invest this 1000, make first pcb locally and its fault. How many iteration it can take to make it really working.
What is real developing budget for NanoRusEFI?
2. Will it fit to 50x50mm or less?
3. Will it work with CDI ignition coils?

What is real NanoRusEFI advantage over existing numerous 2ign+2inj Speeduino projects for small engines???

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by Gepro »

Why do you want so much CDI ignition coils ?

The RusEFI ECU actually use the TC4427 for ignition control, it can be use in 5V or 12v and is really powerfull.
It can control high impedance COP from volkswagen groups, like R8 coils, something that megasquirt, or VEMS, can't do (and a lot more)
Some speeduino boards use it too.

It will fit 50x50 if you want, but actual RusEFI has really good quality, take a look to the microrusefi or proteus, and there is nothing like that in speeduino world. Speeduino is younger, maybe drop bear will be really good, I don't know, but it is more a speedeensy than a speeduino :lol:

The interest of RusEFI over speeduino is the number of inputs and outputs, the better tuning (speeduino allows ignition tuning 1 degree, by 1 degree, LOL) and the rusEFI package, the software avalaible are way more advanced, and even more than megasquirt. But certainly less user friendly. And take a look at rusefi online, it is a great tool.

To me, there is no real advantage of a nanorusefi over existing 2+2 Speeduino. A 2+2 project isn't for fine tuning and a lot of purpose...

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane »

Gepro wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:44 pm
Why do you want so much CDI ignition coils ?
No, I dont like it too much but want to have an option to work with.
It benefitiar for very small engines. In some application I have to count each gramm. CDI coil of Honda GY6 50...250cc weight just 37 grammes.
At moment I mostly use Nissan Denso smart coil which weight 180 grammes, and sometimes it too much is not acceptable weight for RC engines.

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane »

Gepro wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:44 pm
Why do you want so much CDI ignition coils ?
No, I dont like it too much but want to have an option to work with.
It benefitiar for very small engines. In some application I have to count each gramm. CDI coil of Honda GY6 50...250cc weight just 37 grammes.
At moment I mostly use Nissan Denso smart coil which weight 180 grammes, and sometimes it too much is not acceptable weight for RC engines.
Gepro wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:44 pm
To me, there is no real advantage of a nanorusefi over existing 2+2 Speeduino. A 2+2 project isn't for fine tuning and a lot of purpose...
Seems yes. Easier rip one of Speeduino projects. Says BlitzboxBL49sp
_____________
ultra-low-cost and mini-sized ECU for speeduino firmware (45 x 58 mm)
Integrated Wideband Lambda Controller with Bosch CJ125 and LSU 4.9
4 high impedance injectors
4 active ignition coils or 1 passive ignition coil with separate ground plane
1 crankshaft sensor with MAX9926 VR-conditioner
1 hall input for camshaft sensor
6 analog inputs: CLT, IAT, TPS, BAT, LMM, MAP
1 optional baro sensor MPXH6400A on bottom side
1 digital input for disco swaggering (aka. launch control)
Onboard Wideband Lambda Controller with Bosch CJ125 (LSU 4.9)
1 fuel pump out
1 idle valve out
1 tacho out
1 boost out (optional with IGN_D out)
1 fan out
USB programming interface with CP2102
______________

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by Gepro »

What is the ultra low cost of the BlitzboxBL49sp ?! I am curious.
MAX9926 and CJ125 aren't soldered by JLC.

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane »

Gepro wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:31 pm
What is the ultra low cost of the BlitzboxBL49sp ?! I
I quoted in China 10 pcba and got offer 64usd per unit without connector.
I can find company and quote. Seems if rip out wide band lambda price will be about 40 usd.

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by AndreyB »

I would like to lock this thread for lack of original content. once there are schematics drafts or photos of prototypes feel free to start a new thread and I will merge.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
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