Full JLC PCB

Hardware inside and outside of the ECU
Gepro
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Full JLC PCB

Post by Gepro »

Hello,

I am really impressed by the Rus EFI project, and I am curious about creating a PCB.

I don't know a lot about electronic, and PCBs, but I am really impressed by the possibilities of the STM32. I come from megasquirt and I am surprise how RusEFI is open source !

But I feel sad that the PCB can't be fully assembled by JLC, I know that the PCB have to be controlled, and the connectors can't be soldered, but I don't see myself soldering an TLE8888, for exemple, but even a MAX9926 looks too difficult for me.
A connector with pins is OK.

So I decide to try to create a fully JLC PCB, it's just for the fun. I don't think that I will order more than 2 PCB (like I can't order just 1 )

I wish to offense nobody, I am using the schematics that already exist.

I want to share you what I do, maybe someone can be interested, and maybe I need advises, but I go with EasyEDA. I know it isn't what you use, but it is more easy for finding SMT parts available and compatible. And I find it more user-friendly that Kicad.
I don't know for PCB, but Kicad is a little laggy on my computer.

I use the Molex 48pins because it's the same that the microRusEFI, so I use an equivalent Pinout for easy swap and tests, but I am not able to do so little PCB, so the case, if case, there is, will be big.
JLCPCB components.jpg
JLCPCB components.jpg (137.82 KiB) Viewed 20452 times
Here is a try for the components listing, they are all on the PCB <3
The price is for 2 SMT boards, and it's wrong, because there is 5% of the the routing and no options for PCB.
There is just the holes for the connectors, just like the 8 holes for the soldering of a MAX9926 VR conditionner or equivalent. I don't find any VR discrete circuit compatible with SMT soldering.
The transistors for the injection are a little too beefy and expensive, but they look strong.

Thanks,

Sincerely,
Attachments
JSRE_2020-11-08_22-14-36.zip
(69.91 KiB) Downloaded 348 times
Schematic_JSRE_2020-11-08_22-12-48.pdf
(340.38 KiB) Downloaded 329 times
mck1117
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by mck1117 »

Gepro wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:21 pm
I wish to offense nobody, I am using the schematics that already exist.
Of course no offense taken, this is the whole point of open source ;)

Gepro wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:21 pm
The transistors for the injection are a little too beefy and expensive, but they look strong.
Another option is the BTS3028 (LCSC C112639). Similar to the ones you're using, but lower current limit. I've used them before and work fine with an stm32.

What's going on in this part? These MOSFETs are unprotected, and will require protection if you want to switch any real world load.
image.png
image.png (17.97 KiB) Viewed 20450 times
The 100k gate resistor has potential to actually damage them - it could cause them to switch so slowly that they exceed their DC SOA during the switch event.
Gepro
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by Gepro »

Thanks !
I hadn't see the BTS3028, they look better and shorter.

The MR and AR, mean Main Relay (for fuel pump) and auxiliary relay (for fan relay).
It's design for relay, and I want them small.
The 100k is a protection for stm, just in case, as the relays are inductive.

Am I wrong ?
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by Gepro »

There is really a big difference between the two !
TO263.jpg
TO263.jpg (125.75 KiB) Viewed 20445 times
BTS3028.jpg
BTS3028.jpg (121.97 KiB) Viewed 20445 times
mck1117
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by mck1117 »

Gepro wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:40 am
The MR and AR, mean Main Relay (for fuel pump) and auxiliary relay (for fan relay).
It's design for relay, and I want them small.
The 100k is a protection for stm, just in case, as the relays are inductive.

Am I wrong ?
That 100k is on the gate, not the output. You want to protect the mosfet itself, not the stm. I'd recommend just using the same chips as injector drivers, which also buys you free flexibility. Proteus just runs 16 identical lowside channels, usable for injectors, relays, whatever.
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by puff »

actually not free. ~$2 vs ~$0.1
looking for a 3v controlled switch to drive relays, so what's wrong with that solution? will replacing that 100k resistor with a 100-ohm one help?
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by mck1117 »

puff wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:50 am
actually not free. ~$2 vs ~$0.1
looking for a 3v controlled switch to drive relays, so what's wrong with that solution? will replacing that 100k resistor with a 100-ohm one help?
Sure, it's a little more expensive, but the safety features are really nice to have. Replacing with a 100 ohm will solve the SOA issues, but not the over voltage protection. You'd need a zener + second diode, plus a resistor to roll your own OVP, at which point you should just use a fully protected driver that also gets you overcurrent (what happens if you miswire the main relay and connect the switched pin directly to 12v?) and over temp protection.
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by andreika »

But I feel sad that the PCB can't be fully assembled by JLC, I know that the PCB have to be controlled, and the connectors can't be soldered, but I don't see myself soldering an TLE8888, for exemple, but even a MAX9926 looks too difficult for me.
The rusEFI PCB "fully" assembled by JLC already exists: https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1682
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by Gepro »

Thanks !

mck1117, you are right, the BTS3028 is expensive, but finally not bigger (with all the protections) and way more useful and powerful.

Andreika, that's funny, today, I was thinking about creating a shield with a shield on it, in order to cut the "outputs" part in two identical PCB, (like JLC ask for 2 PCB minimum for SMT) with half the pins connected on them, that allow to put the 2 PCB one again the other, and BOOM ! Double sided PCB in 1 order.
I don't think that you understand what I am talking about... :D :D My english is bad, and a think that a picture is better.
Hellen looks great ! I love it, but I don't see a lot of informations and schematics about Hellen :cry: :cry:
I am happy to know it's "fully" assembled by JLC !

Whats is that FM4 ?! A variant of stm32 ? It will not be a pain in the ass to adapt ?
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by Gepro »

Here is a picture and a schematic of what I was talking :
Reverse.jpg
Reverse.jpg (110.09 KiB) Viewed 20373 times
Schematic_Double Shield_2020-11-09_22-41-23.png
Schematic_Double Shield_2020-11-09_22-41-23.png (67.6 KiB) Viewed 20373 times
I don't know how to put two PCB on 3D view, I can't show you the "double stackhouse" :D

It isn't well finished but that give the idea, you can put 2 PCB like this together, and solders long pins through them.
It can be put between the ECU board in one side, and the STM32 in the other. That can make a double side 8 layer PCB <3 and virtually without buying 2 PCB.

The ouputs are in the front of the the PCB, with the +5v in the middle, like the stm board hasn't it reversible.
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by Gepro »

Finally, i do a clean PCB, here it is.
Double stack.jpg
Double stack.jpg (88.43 KiB) Viewed 20366 times
Schematic_Double Shield_2020-11-09_23-51-46.png
Schematic_Double Shield_2020-11-09_23-51-46.png (74.71 KiB) Viewed 20366 times
There is a lot of room left, but that is the size of the STM discovery board.

I don't think somebody care about that board, but I prefer sharing :D

Sorry about easyEDA :P
BTS reversed.jpg
BTS reversed.jpg (148.93 KiB) Viewed 20366 times
Do you think there is a problem with JLC ? The BTS3028 is reverse !?

Thanks,
Attachments
Double Stack.zip
(54.77 KiB) Downloaded 324 times
PickAndPlace_DOUBLE STACK_2020-11-09_23-29-47.csv
(4.05 KiB) Downloaded 310 times
Gerber_DOUBLE STACK_2020-11-09_23-29-58.zip
(13.77 KiB) Downloaded 329 times
BOM_Double Shield_2020-11-09_23-29-33.csv
(1.63 KiB) Downloaded 293 times
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AndreyB
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by AndreyB »

https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/Hardware

Q: This is all very cool but you guys do not have a Plug&Play for my Trabant. I think I will go and make a new rusEFI board just for my Trabant!

A: At rusEFI we love cool new projects, but we are a really small team and only have so much time to work on rusEFI.
We already have lots of different hardware configurations and we would suggest using one of the existing wire in versions.
Nobody is stopping you from making your own board, but we cannot guarantee any support for that board or assistance with building it.
If you proceed then please consider making a P&P adapter board design based on Hellen, Proteus, or microRusEFI.
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by Gepro »

What do you call a PnP board design ?

I am interested by Hellen, but I dont find a lot of informations, or schematics.

I will use the same molex and a "compatible" pinout of the microrusefi, but i don't have the "level" to do a so little PCB.
And i don't feel myself about soldering a TLE8888 for testing.
And that's the same for proteus. (A friend of mine has an air pulse station but never try)

By compatible, I mean that i have to change the pinout of the injectors from batch to sequential.

I will not do a lot of testing PCB, I wish to do ECU who are usable with my others projects...
A friend of mine has defective injection on his redblock, i have a CA18DET to swap into a diesel Cherokee. I want to change the shitty ECU of my redblock in order to use E85. A friend of mine wants ignition control on his carb engine. And a subaru feels jealous.

I am not waiting for support or assistance, I just want to share what I do. If i can have advice, that's better, but that's not what I am looking for.

Actually, I change my mind everyday about the design, I will think about longer before posting :? :? :?

Thanks,
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by AndreyB »

Gepro wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:01 pm
I mean that i have to change the pinout of the injectors from batch to sequential.
I do not follow this part.
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by Gepro »

I have to plug 3 pairs of injectors on the MicroRusEFI, like there is just 4 outputs for inductive.

But on my pinout, LS1 and LS2 will be inductive ready, for exemple. So usable for cylinder 5 and 6.

I can also solder the pins behind the microrusefi, but I think I will keep it stock, the VR conditionner will certainly be external. I don't want to make soldering inside with wires, I will certainly install it on a clean 4 cylinders later. (I really want a clean subaru)
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by puff »

offtopic: Do you think these BTS3028SDR will be enough to drive solenoids used in pneumatic suspension?
ontopic: 1) I looked through schematics, and there are many parts that are from JLCPCB's extended list, which means another $3 per each component, and this adds up quite quickly - may be there are alternatives?
2) have you tested that power supply part - both, schematically and in terms of PCB topology? is it safe to to reuse it in my own project (the above mentioned pneumatic suspension controller?)
3) recently, when i was looking for automotive power supply schematics, I watched a video from infineon, and they suggested using a separate power supply IC for sensors (in case you short that circuit to ground or to 12V, with this approach, this won't ruin your main µc)
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by Gepro »

In fact, I change my mind about Full assembled and I go for full "basic" I was thinking that the extended price was for 1 kind, but no, if you put 2 of them on a board, that make 12$ !!
I finally go through hole for some parts. I can solder it.

I hadn't lot of time for the PCB, but I am working on it this week end. I finally don't want it to replace the microrusefi, but I want it to assist it for dash control through canbus, I want to have fun with canbus :lol:

The BTS3028SDR can control everything you want (inductive, resistive, capacitive) but I will go for VNP5N07 though holes.
Same kind of mosfet, autoprotect and all you want, they can be find easily and cheap. There is NVP10N07 for 10A and VNP20N07.
I order one VNP20N07 for PWM fan control, it will be near the fan, not in the calculator. Too much amps.

That's funny that you talk about pneumatic suspension, I am interested too ! I haven't money and time for it, but rover P38 system is cheap on ebay, with nice dunlop valve. (and there is all the anti moisture you want)

I go for a totally different 5V supply, with basic parts, a LM2576SX-5.0, for information, I take the schems from texas instrument.

For the one, it's from the schems of the protheus, it is a nice chip with high frequency, but extended part :P

Texas instrument also purpose a nice tool, it's switcherpro, I take a look at it for the use of the TPS basic part from JLC. But I prefer to go with the LM.

But I don't really understand your question about the 5V, the BTS3028SDR is for ground control, it doesn't need powersupply.

But, you are right, the high side isn't for power delivery, it's better to go with 12v input, and stay under the 40% of duty cycle, it's what I am doing right now with the megasquirt for controlling the boost gauge. But it isn't good when there isn't a perfect 14v, when I put the key on, the gauge is under 0kpa :( :( With 14v, it's okay. It isn't for precision, so I don't care.
You can also add a resistor befoce the component, by safety.
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by Gepro »

For information, here is the schematic for now, there is not a lot of components, and certainly will not. But I try to understand the TPIC8101, it needs an external crystal from what I understand.
I already ordered 5 TPIC8101, I wish I am able to solder it...

I will also take a look at the wideband control. I believe it can be a good thing if it is able to send some knock and wideband via canbus. But I have no idea how it works :roll: :roll: :roll:
Attachments
Schematic_GPIO_2020-11-13_19-28-03.pdf
(137.64 KiB) Downloaded 261 times
mck1117
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by mck1117 »

puff wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:57 pm
offtopic: Do you think these BTS3028SDR will be enough to drive solenoids used in pneumatic suspension?
probably plenty, yeah
puff wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:57 pm
ontopic: 1) I looked through schematics, and there are many parts that are from JLCPCB's extended list, which means another $3 per each component, and this adds up quite quickly - may be there are alternatives?
It's $3 per bom line per batch, not per component. So if you use an extended part, it's a $3 flat fee to use as many of that part as you want in a batch.
puff wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:57 pm
2) have you tested that power supply part - both, schematically and in terms of PCB topology? is it safe to to reuse it in my own project (the above mentioned pneumatic suspension controller?)
that LMR14020 based regulator is straight from Proteus - works great.
puff wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:57 pm
3) recently, when i was looking for automotive power supply schematics, I watched a video from infineon, and they suggested using a separate power supply IC for sensors (in case you short that circuit to ground or to 12V, with this approach, this won't ruin your main µc)
proteus and microRusEfi do that and I would highly recommend it - you can short the 5v sensor supply to ground, 12v, -12v, etc, and it won't hurt anything, including the sensor supply reg.
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by Gepro »

Hello,

I believe that the board is ready for testing <3
I will wait a little before ordering, I will think more about it. I wanted to put an EGT sensor in the middle on the board but I am a little bored and limited by routing. I don't know if it will be fine, I will see.

The board is for GPIO purpose, there isn't the coil and capacitor for the voltage regulator, I don't find basic parts and I am OK with through holes.
That's the same with mosfet and amps, but they are optionnal.
The harder part is the TPIC8101 to be soldered, no available on JLC.

The board has :

- CANBUS (it's what I want to play with)
- 5 inputs, one is for VSS or hall sensor. And the others 4 are selectable between analog (mean voltage sensing) and temperature (mean resistance to ground sensing)
- 8 optional low-side outputs through VNP5N07, but only the 4th has a big width for power. And I have no idea of the real power output, I want to try to see the limit (burn test)
- 4 optional high-side output through TC4427, you have 2 outputs per chip. The output is selectable between 5v and 12v for each chip. So, if you need one 5v and one 12v, you have to buy and solder 2 chips.
- 1 room for TPIC8101, I want to give a try to knock sensing.
- 1 room for a MAX9926, or equivalent, board, you have to solder the VRinput from the holes behind the molex. (give me more room and allow the add of inline resistor without modifying the car wiring)This board allows the GPIO to become ECU. So I can try it as ECU on other car. But there is only 4 analog inputs.

My goal is controlling my dash, I have a boost gauge that need a 5v high side, and my speedo doesn't go with my gearbox. I will try to command an external VNP20N07 though highside for PWM fan control. After that I will have some beefy VNP5N07 for lights, but, that's fine.

I also have an OEM diff oil cooler on my car, actually unwired. Maybe I will motivate myself about it :P

Here is the schematic :
Schematic_GPIO_2020-11-14_16-30-41.pdf
(235.05 KiB) Downloaded 240 times
and a preview of JLC order for 2SMT assembled :
gpio.jpg
gpio.jpg (161.27 KiB) Viewed 20177 times
There is no the price of the coil and the 3 capacitors.

Thanks,
Attachments
GPIO-easyEDA.zip
(192.88 KiB) Downloaded 252 times
PINOUT.pdf
(12.16 KiB) Downloaded 231 times
PickAndPlace_GPIO_2020-11-14_16-17-35.csv
(21.96 KiB) Downloaded 256 times
Gerber_GPIO.zip
(60.53 KiB) Downloaded 257 times
BOM_GPIO_2020-11-14_16-17-14.csv
(8.31 KiB) Downloaded 257 times
Gepro
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by Gepro »

I finally find the MAX31855 on JLC <3
It's a extended part, but look easy to install. There is a little place on the left of the stm.

Here it is.

I should have let more room for the mosfet... But some of them are for lights on dash :roll:
Attachments
Schematic_GPIO_2020-11-14_18-25-55.pdf
(241 KiB) Downloaded 204 times
PCB_GPIO_2020-11-14_18-24-54.pdf
(291.8 KiB) Downloaded 243 times
Gepro
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by Gepro »

Mmmm I show the schematic to an engineer friend, and he tolds me that I am an ass. That I must put overvoltage protection on usb and canbus, and pull down resistor on mosfet.
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by AndreyB »

Would it close inside the case? Do you plan for his to close inside the case? I believe we had case 3D model somewhere but I could be wrong. Do you have a case to try? Do you have a case to look at before sending this to fab?
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by AndreyB »

Please fill in "location" in forum profile if possible?
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by Gepro »

Okay !

I will receive a cheap 48pins ebay case, look a bit like the microrusefi case, but bigger and in abs. I don't have it for now but, I order it for the plugs, same as microrusefi.

That allow me to try it, but I don't want to focus on an ECU for now, I use basic parts, and the STMs in basic aren't for industrial use.
I will try them on fun car, I have to swap a CA18DET in a diesel cherokee, and the oem wiring looks shit. It isn't for intense use, so it should be fine.
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by Gepro »

Finally, i change a lot of things, I add 5V protection on the USB, and some resistors before mosfet. I add the max chip for K probe, and 2 other high side.
A friend of mine, who help me for my boost gauge, says that I need an analog out, so I put a TLV2372 in through hole "revision", with his help.
I also add a jumper on the VSS to allow analog input though it.

I don't want extended parts for now, i do a exception for thermocouple, but I am absolutely not sure about what I am doing, and I don't want to pay a lot, so I will take 2 assembled boards, and put the components that I want on it.
I try to put route on multi layer for more amps capacity, I don't know how much it can handle.

I think that I need a bigger board and bigger connector, the 48 pins don't allow more than 0.3mm between pins for easyEDA, I don't know if I can trust it.

Sincerely,
Attachments
Schematic_GPIO_2020-11-15_01-57-19.pdf
(283.5 KiB) Downloaded 215 times
PCB_GPIO_2020-11-15_01-57-09.pdf
(369.77 KiB) Downloaded 237 times
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by Gepro »

That's ordered. I pay for 2 assembled PCB with leadfree and TG155. There isn't a lot of options with smt assembling :cry: :cry:

I discovered that the 2 layers of the middle are only 0.5OZ, I will think different if I do others boards.

That cost me 59€, with delivery in 2 weeks, but I don't know if I will pay VAT or not !?
With christmas and lockdown, I believe I will not see them before 2021 :D :D

I just added 2 led at the last minute :oops:

Sincerely,
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by puff »

you are so quick! how old are you?
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by Gepro »

Lol ! I look like a teenager ? :D I am 35, and I don't think I am quick. I just discovered the PCB tools.

I go to work but I can't see my friends because of lockdown :cry: :cry: :cry: So I have much time. :roll:
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Re: Full JLC PCB

Post by puff »

gepro, just curious, what was the goal of the whole exercise? :D
mck1117, I meant exactly that. so, how many parts in the design are not from the basic domain, i.e. what extra fee you had to pay for the whole project? I bet it's more than $50.. all in all it's all about the balance (getting rid of some less demanded features to make it fit the budget)

anyways, I was looking through proteus files to steal its power supply but couldn't find any LMR14020 there, and those mentioned in proteus schematics couldn't be found among jlcpcb parts...

gepro, since you are so fast, may be you could help with that pneuma control board? (i am trying to persuade myself start doing it since summer)
basically I want it to have an stm32f103c8t6 (basic part), a reliable power supply network, a ch340 usb driver connected to its uart (basic part), a buzzer, a canbus tranceiver (basic part), four mcp62002 (basic part) adcs and eight, say, BTS3028SDR solenoid drivers with signaling leds and all the needed protection.
I want it to have 776231-1 (header same as used in proteus), an SWD port, an extra unpopulated UART port on board and some extra pins from mcu on the board to make alterations easier should we need them (in case something goes wrong).
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