BGA in ECU

Hardware inside and outside of the ECU
Post Reply
User avatar
AndreyB
Site Admin
Posts: 12800
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Github Username: rusefillc
Slack: Andrey B

BGA in ECU

Post by AndreyB »

Concerns about BGA in rusEFI were raised more than once. How does OEM get away with BGA for instance TriCore in BGA-180? Better QC? Any fabrication magic?
Very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions

Always looking for C/C++/Java/PHP developers! Please help us see https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
User avatar
AndreyB
Site Admin
Posts: 12800
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Github Username: rusefillc
Slack: Andrey B

Re: BGA in ECU

Post by AndreyB »

This question is half about GD32F450IIH6 half just general curiosity.
image.png
image.png (201.38 KiB) Viewed 3530 times
Very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions

Always looking for C/C++/Java/PHP developers! Please help us see https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
mck1117
running engine in first post
running engine in first post
Posts: 1272
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:05 am
Location: Seattle-ish

Re: BGA in ECU

Post by mck1117 »

AndreyB wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:41 pm
Any fabrication magic?
epoxy underfill, which we cannot do
User avatar
kb1gtt
contributor
contributor
Posts: 3732
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:42 am
Location: ME of USA

Re: BGA in ECU

Post by kb1gtt »

I understand x-ray inspection to validate proper soldering is also a key feature from OEM. Which is difficult for us.
Welcome to the friendlier side of internet crazy :)
puff
contributor
contributor
Posts: 2923
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:28 am
Location: Moskau

Re: BGA in ECU

Post by puff »

Which is of even more curiosity is why do they offer these for their pick and place service? (Or they just don't?)
User avatar
Zeiss
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:32 pm
Location: Germany
Github Username: HeinrichG-V12

Re: BGA in ECU

Post by Zeiss »

I worked for my old employer in the field of networking (CAN, MOST, LIN, ...) and accordingly had a lot to do with the OEMs, especially Bosch, Siemens, VDO, Delphi, but also ZF, VW, Mercedes, BMW.... We have also developed hardware and software for networks ourselves.

I have never had an ECU from Bosch or Siemens in my hands that had BGA components in it. But, the whole thing was 7 years ago, so it may be different nowadays. In our hardware we had BGA components in it and it was so that the first approx. 80-100 pieces of hardware ended up in the scrap because the ICs were not soldered cleanly (X-ray examination at the pcb manufacturer).After that it worked, but as I said, the scrap was very large.

In the car, I would avoid the BGA ICs in any case, whenever possible. It is not an environment for BGA, extreme temperature fluctuations, vibrations, different expansion of PCB and IC ...
Regards,
Heinrich
mck1117
running engine in first post
running engine in first post
Posts: 1272
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:05 am
Location: Seattle-ish

Re: BGA in ECU

Post by mck1117 »

some are certainly BGA these days, for example, bmw n52/n54 (and presumably most newer):
image.png
image.png (428.47 KiB) Viewed 3426 times
mck1117
running engine in first post
running engine in first post
Posts: 1272
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:05 am
Location: Seattle-ish

Re: BGA in ECU

Post by mck1117 »

Zeiss wrote:
Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:25 pm
In the car, I would avoid the BGA ICs in any case, whenever possible. It is not an environment for BGA, extreme temperature fluctuations, vibrations, different expansion of PCB and IC ...
Yes, for us, 100% true. We simply don't have the development, production, and validation resources available to make BGA work.
User avatar
Zeiss
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:32 pm
Location: Germany
Github Username: HeinrichG-V12

Re: BGA in ECU

Post by Zeiss »

Puh, okay, as I said, 7 years ago.
Thank you for the picture!
Regards,
Heinrich
mck1117
running engine in first post
running engine in first post
Posts: 1272
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:05 am
Location: Seattle-ish

Re: BGA in ECU

Post by mck1117 »

That ECU is from 2007 :lol:
User avatar
Zeiss
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:32 pm
Location: Germany
Github Username: HeinrichG-V12

Re: BGA in ECU

Post by Zeiss »

You are right, then I missed something... :(

Nevertheless, BGA sucks. :D
Regards,
Heinrich
User avatar
Dron_Gus
contributor
contributor
Posts: 327
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:11 pm
Location: S-Pb
Github Username: dron0gus

Re: BGA in ECU

Post by Dron_Gus »

BGA will need at least 8 layer PCB. And skilled PCB developer for correct fan-out.
We been producing car monitoring systems 10-15 years ago. One was based on AT91SAM9G and another on s3c2416. Both bga. Plus DDR ram. This system been working on heavy trucks with no issue for years.
Also BGA soldering is not a problem for skilled manufacturer. From my experience I would say most problems caused by chips with no pins (QFN) and small 3-6 pins chips (sot-23 and similar).
nmstec
contributor
contributor
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:02 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: BGA in ECU

Post by nmstec »

The amount of BGA failures in automotive equipment I've had to deal with is through the roof. Last one was a few months ago. 2020 Dodge Charger ECU. Press on the bga MCU, and it comes to life.

Common modules with BGA mcu failure are 2008-2020 BCMs in GM light vehicles (eg; cruze), early ford/mazda Continental ecus, BMW Tricore Ecus.

And this is just the shit off the top of my head. I have yet to see a BGA based module that is located under the hood that doesn't suffer from failure. Regular solder is susceptible to failure from micro vibrations and heat fluctuations, and sticking it under the hood where there is a fuckton of those environmental variables I consider to be idiotic.

Here is a module that does not have a BGA processor, instead fails due to soldering issues. They have tried epoxy, and then putting hot glue on top, and it still fails non-stop. This is a FICM module on diesel fords, a quick google search can explain that quite well.

No BGA. BGA bad. Fuck BGA.

OH ANOTHER POINT. Delphi, stopped using BGA processors in all their latest lineups for ECUs.
"Dave B. 5:03 PM
Mark is an ass but by far the most potent combination of knowledgeable ass, smart ass, get it done ass and determined ass. and his ass consistently puts in time."

-Dave B, Hero, Tuner, and probably has a car.
blundar
contributor
contributor
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:38 am
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Github Username: blundar
Slack: Dave B.
Contact:

Re: BGA in ECU

Post by blundar »

FICMs don't fail due to soldering issues. They're essentially a heavy-duty boost converter and PnH driver in one. The FETs are mildly underspecced for long term reliability, plus the usual capacitor issues. Although I replaced a lot of components "just because" I did test as far as finding a couple of FETs that were starting to become dead shorts in my FICM that was putting out 19V vs. 48 desired.

Dodge ECMs are notorious for BGA issues. BGA = the suck, especially in an environment where they experience many cold/hot thermal cycles and tons of vibration with lead-free solder.
nmstec
contributor
contributor
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:02 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: BGA in ECU

Post by nmstec »

FICMS very specifically die because of soldering. Of all the FICMs I've ever fixed (and oh boy theres a fuckton), I've never had to replace a single component in them. The shunt resistors literally lift with the hot glue. Resolder them all, and its back to perfection.

Regarding BGA, completely agree, complete shit, should not exist outside of static consumer products.
"Dave B. 5:03 PM
Mark is an ass but by far the most potent combination of knowledgeable ass, smart ass, get it done ass and determined ass. and his ass consistently puts in time."

-Dave B, Hero, Tuner, and probably has a car.
User avatar
MHTSOS
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:46 pm
Github Username: MHTSOSVOODOO
Slack: Dimitri C

Re: BGA in ECU

Post by MHTSOS »

Another ECU that drops dead like flies is 64pin Magnetti Marelli in Fiats. BGA cpu and the ECU is bolted on the top of the engine. The only logical reason I see for an OEM to do that is to cut down on cable length for the harness.


Στάλθηκε από το VOG-L29 μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk

MWP
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:20 am

Re: BGA in ECU

Post by MWP »

nmstec wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:01 am
Regarding BGA, completely agree, complete shit, should not exist outside of static consumer products.
They shouldn't exist there either. The amount of products that die due to BGAs pads cracking with thermal cycling is massive.

I see NXP have moved to a dual row pin design for its auto specific processors to increase the pin count without needing BGA.
Its a mix of LQFP and J lead.
Post Reply