[info] Ignition modules

Hardware inside and outside of the ECU
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russian
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Ignition modules

Post by russian » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:53 am

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https://www.oshpark.com/shared_projects/OChRKHDe

BTS2140
https://svn.code.sf.net/p/rusefi/code/t ... _breakout/

Image



Toyota individual coil wants an igniter which could be directly controlled by stm32 output. Sounds like a plan for ignition migration :)

Some tech details:
Toyota igniter 89621-33020 (94-96 TOYOTA Camry v6, 94-95 LEXUS ES300) - if you are in a junk yard this module is mounted under the hood on the driver side strut tower.
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Re: just for fun - spark plug video

Post by skeeters_keeper » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:53 pm

Making good progress! Any reason you chose a toyota COP?

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Re: just for fun - spark plug video

Post by russian » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:58 pm

skeeters_keeper wrote:Making good progress! Any reason you chose a toyota COP?
This Lexus was right in my face while I was passing by during "all you can carry" event at a junk yard.

Only later I have learned that some COPs want and igniter and some do not.
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by russian » Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:24 am

Bosch 0227100211 - a four channel option, looks to be smaller than Toyota igniter. One day I would check if it works with 3.3v as Toyota module does.
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by russian » Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:39 pm

My Neon would need an igniter, and I now live in the land of no junk yards. I probably have some Toyota igniters but anyway, we need a tiny rusEfi igniter board. Some fancy IGBT? Any preference anyone?
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by puff » Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:57 pm


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Re: Ignition modules

Post by russian » Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:01 pm

L497D1 is not available @ digikey - it's an obsolete item. BU931 is available for $3.04

Wow, that's a LOT of components just to drive a coil.
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by DaWaN » Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:06 pm

russian wrote:Bosch 0227100211 - a four channel option, looks to be smaller than Toyota igniter. One day I would check if it works with 3.3v as Toyota module does.
russian wrote:My Neon would need an igniter, and I now live in the land of no junk yards. I probably have some Toyota igniters but anyway, we need a tiny rusEfi igniter board. Some fancy IGBT? Any preference anyone?
What coils has the Neon?
The Bosch module you posted above immediately sprung to my mind. You should be able to drive them with 3.3V as they are driven by current, not voltage (they are a transistor, not a FET). I am not sure driving them directly from GPIOs is a good idea, but with a simple buffering solution (maybe something 74xx-ish or some discrete transistor/mosfet) it should be fine. The TC4427 will drive them happily!

Here you can find the official datasheet: http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/media/ca ... 099pdf.pdf

As for sourcing the Bosch module: they are all over eBay, new and very cheap (probably not original, but does that matter?). I could find them new as low as 15 US dollar and a new connector kit with the two connectors for about the same price.

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Re: Ignition modules

Post by russian » Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:40 pm

Sure TC4427 and any random igniter, since TC4427 would also give us 6 or 12 volts.

One way or another, we need our own igniter on our board - there are enough cars where the igniter is inside the ECU, so to keep the clean stock harness we need the igniter inside. No rush but we can start looking into that.
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by kb1gtt » Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:56 am

Two large concerns with internal ignitors is eat and voltage. They can many ma ny watts, which need to be removed. Also they need 600V+ insulation.
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by russian » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:46 am

If stock ECUs do that that's at least possible?
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by puff » Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:01 pm

Probably, through separation of analogue and digital grounds? Insulation?

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Re: Ignition modules

Post by kb1gtt » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:11 pm

Mostly potting materiel and large alum heat sinks, with air flow. Possible, yes.
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by russian » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:36 pm

That's the schematics of that Yanvar OEM ECU. I guess we need to see some pics of the inside.
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by Sergey89 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:56 pm

http://almisoft.ru/files/ecu_photos/J72.jpg
4 igbts placed on the left side

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Re: Ignition modules

Post by russian » Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:18 pm

Infineon BTS2140 is Obsolete, but still available for about $1.20 from China.
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by Sergey89 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:21 pm


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Re: Ignition modules

Post by abecedarian » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:06 pm

You can lead the horticulture but you can't make them think.

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Re: Ignition modules

Post by russian » Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:09 pm

russian wrote:Infineon BTS2140 is Obsolete, but still available for about $1.20 from China.
STGB10NB37LZ seems to do the same, available @ digikey
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by russian » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:35 am

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Order placed, thank you Jared!
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by kb1gtt » Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:07 pm

Some notes, you will probably want to dip this in hot glue or some kind of potting materials to get the insulation ratings better than humid air. As well you'll want to use 600V or higher rated wire, and 600V or more rated screw terminal. The coils primary voltage will get up 400V to 500V under normal operation, but could go higher. R2 may or may not be required. It's probably best to try this with a switch and power supply as the signal wire could get a kick from the high voltage wires. Best to check it and see if you get a spike(s) with a scope before driving it with the discovery. Also it probably will make lots of heat, and will probably need a heat sink.
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by russian » Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:40 am

both BTS2140 and the board have arrived.

Image

I guess it would work for a test, but we would need a DPAK (not DDPAK) version for next revision.
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by E4ODnut » Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:28 am

How about this?

The MCU drives a transistor on the main board such as this:

http://www.diodes.com/datasheets/ZTX450.pdf

Which drives a device on a remote board like this:

http://www.fairchildsemi.com/datasheets ... D_F085.pdf

Too simple?
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by kb1gtt » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:21 am

If you can go with an external ignitor, I would suggest doing something like the below picture. The frank boards include a TC447 which can simplify that schematic slightly.

Image
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by russian » Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:12 am

I wonder how much compatible is ISL9V3040 with BTS2140? And these are not really 600V, so what would be a 600V part number (and cost)?

The module works :)

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Re: Ignition modules

Post by blundar » Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:27 am

Why are you making things so hard?

Denso "pencil" coils come in all shapes and sizes with 3 or 4 pin connectors. Toyota uses them. Honda uses them. Nissan uses them. Mitsufeces uses them. Subaru use them. They support ~150-200hp/cylinder with a 0.020" spark gap and a copper plug or 0.018" spark gap with an iridium plug. Need about 2.5ms dwell at 14v.

GM LS coils come in several variants, with the newer ones liking about 5.25ms dwell at 14v. Support about 250-300hp/cylinder at 0.020" spark gap.

Both have built in ignitors with logic drive. The GM coilpacks have plug wires so you can get the make-your-own wire kits from Summit and use them on anything. Or you can get out there and measure the lengths of the Denso coils and find some that fit. :)

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Re: Ignition modules

Post by kb1gtt » Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:18 am

These EcoSpark IGBT's seem to be fairly good at a reasonable price.

http://octopart.com/fgb3440g2_f085-fair ... r-47152181

I generally look for a above 400V, above 20A, and above 300mJ energy if you exceed the clamp voltage. That said, higher in all three areas is generally better. For a bit more $, you can get something like this IRF

http://octopart.com/auirgs30b60k-intern ... r-19800099

I don't see a mJ rating for that auirgs30b60k, this may mean that chip will break if you exceed 600V, however you are very likely to spark at 600V, so... don't spark when you don't have a plug installed kind of thing, but when a plug is installed, it can really set the world on fire.
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by russian » Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:15 pm

blundar wrote:Why are you making things so hard?
But then you need to figure out how to hold them in place, and then you need to slice some harness... A lot of people would not do that to their vehicle :)
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by kb1gtt » Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:48 pm

I agree that pencil style is good if you can work with it. The problem is that many people are looking of plug in OEM, or can't physically mount them under the hood. I think it's good to have many options, as one solution won't work for every application.

Do you have a suggested of the shelf pencil coil? I'm looking for 4 cyl's, and will probably go new if I can find good ones.
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by abecedarian » Tue Dec 23, 2014 7:14 pm

kb1gtt wrote:I agree that pencil style is good if you can work with it. The problem is that many people are looking of plug in OEM, or can't physically mount them under the hood. I think it's good to have many options, as one solution won't work for every application.

Do you have a suggested of the shelf pencil coil? I'm looking for 4 cyl's, and will probably go new if I can find good ones.
The pencil coils are coil-on-plug and as such require some sort of bracket or mount to secure them, so something has to be fabricated if the original installation didn't use them.

D12573190 is a possible option, though that is the GM/Delphi LSx type coil; means for mounting is still required.

*edit- put the "D" back into the part number because without it, many posts that follow won't make sense.
Last edited by abecedarian on Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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