[info] Power supply - kb1gtt

Hardware inside and outside of the ECU
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by AndreyB »

Q1: the tant capacitors, can I mount them any way? There is a dash on side I wonder if that dash means something.

Q2: would it be better to rotate the inductors 90 degrees? The way they are there is no way to use soldering iron between them, and with a hot air gun there is little control over what's going on. Do we want to stay as iron compatible as possible in spirit of DIY?

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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by UnaClocker »

Warning! Tant caps have the stripe on the POSITIVE side, not the negative side! And you do have to get the polarity right on polarized caps. :)
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by kb1gtt »

Correct the tants marking indicates + while the pcb has a small circle on one end that may indicate + but probably indicates -. Keep a close eye on this as incorrect installment will likely result in fire or explosion. They will get hot if backward before fire happens.
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by AndreyB »

Do not see any marks on http://rusefi.com/images/forum_posts/power_supply_pcb.jpg
My 50/50 bet did not win, I will remount them so that the mark is on the positive side :)
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by kb1gtt »

The silk marks are there but are kind of hard to see especially if you don't know what you are looking for. On the bottom left of c3 you see a small dot. That's the mark. Then on the other cap, the mark got pinched by a via. I originally thought that mark was some kind of load far, but the I noticed it is consistent on that entire series of modules. The dot indicates pad 1. Pad 1 for caps is typically the + side.
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by kb1gtt »

Tants and silk screen should be as shown in the attached.
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by AndreyB »

8262743708 have arrived - that's D2 & D3. Tomorrow I should get VS-50WQ04FNPBF-ND and MMBZ18VALT1GOSCT-ND

VS-50WQ04FNPBF-ND has the 'DO NOT POPULATE' comment

It looks like MMBZ18VALT1GOSCT-ND was replaced by something else?
It looks like I am missing sky-macau.com,4824167646 and sky-macau.com,5633100308 and sky-macau.com,1438219496?

Can you please add digikey part numbers along the side of sky-macau.com #s? I would place an order with digikey just to get these faster.

I've edited the first post in this thread with a link to a current (?) BOM.
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by kb1gtt »

The original BOM used components specifically chosen based on the datasheet. Those components were listed in the KICAD properties. Then I re-worked the board to use all sky-macau.com components. I left the original BOM in the KICAD files as that was my original choice and I wanted to some how keep that history. Also D4 was my original choice, but I selected D6 to be specifically from sky-macau.com. I expect that with D4 installed and not D6, you can get 3A out of this, then with D6 installed and not D4, you might get as much as 2.3A.

So there is some blah data in the background of the KICAD files which might be a bit confusing. But fear not, see the BOM in the zip file under the Gerber folder. That includes both an accurate sky-macau.com BOM and gerber files that sky-macau.com would need for MFG. However if one is to make this locally, they may want to choose some other non sky-macau.com components. For example, they would want to install D4 instead of D6. They might also want to install a fuse in the fuse holder instead of a jumper. Minor things like that. They could also probably choose a more beefy TVS D2 and D3. However the sky-macau.com is pretty close to what people would want if built locally.

Now that I have explained some of the behind the scenes blah, answers to your questions.

It appears you have good selections for D2,D3 and D4. Do not populate D6 unless you want to see how this will preform with all sky-macau.com components.

MMBZ18VALT1GOSCT-ND (D2, D3) has been replaced with a better larger diode. This was my original choice, but I agree with others that this really should be larger.
4824167646 (Q1) is a generic MOSFET, Here is an alternative. NTR1P02T1GOSCT-ND a lower cost alternative could probably be found, However I've used this before, so I know it will work.
5633100308 (D1) BZT52C7V5-FDICT-ND should be fine
1438219496 (D6) not needed as you already have D4 and D4 is physically better.
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by AndreyB »

Tine problem with PCE3523CT-ND
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by kb1gtt »

That is a bulk cap, used for bulk storage, such that when the switcher pulls a massive amount of short term current, it doesn't have to come from the battery directly. That energy would come from this cap instead. If we use a smaller cap, we run the risk that when the switcher demands fairly large short term currents, the wire length, or wire size will create a voltage drop and the switcher will become less efficient, or will create extra ripple in the output.

Is the concern about the vertical height?

From the datasheet, it appears it will fit the PCB layout. Does the component not physically fit?
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by AndreyB »

It does not fit physically

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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by kb1gtt »

Oops, my bad. That was the original cap I had selected, not the one we could get from sky-macau. Here is a very near equiv from digikey. More importantly, this one will fit the PCB pads. http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/UWT1E471MNL1GS/493-2194-1-ND/590169
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by AndreyB »

It works!
First post updated with a picture.
I've started with an unplanned reverse polarity test - the silkscreen on the back has confused me. Then I've connected it right and got 5v on the output pins.

I do not have skill or equipment for any deeper tests so I am mailing it to Jared.

I suggest we rotate the inductors and tant capacitors 90 degrees to make soldering easier.
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by puff »

you definitely need an o-scope - you could easily get one off ebay for cheap ;)
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by AndreyB »

puff wrote:you definitely need an o-scope - you could easily get one off ebay for cheap ;)
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by kb1gtt »

I got to start looking at the power supply today, thanks russian for soldering it up.

So far so good, With out C1 installed I was able to see how well it rejects ripple. It was doing a good job of rejecting ripple, and once I get C1 installed it will be even better.
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by AndreyB »

kb1gtt wrote:Keep a close eye on this as incorrect installment will likely result in fire or explosion. They will get hot if backward before fire happens.
Takes ~2 seconds for them to start burning, but they burn out pretty quickly. Would not call it explosion - barely a pop... Yep, I've just installed it wrong.
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by kb1gtt »

Welcome to the dark side :) Now you just need to get that bottle of smoke to fill that cap back up and try again.

The regulator limited the current, which is partly why you only got a pop. Just for fun, some day you should connect one direct to a car battery, just so you can see what could happen :)
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by AndreyB »

I've just finished the power supply on two boards. One just works, the other one... See http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Hardware:power_supply_repair
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by kb1gtt »

What voltage do you measure on the feed back pin? If the feed back is not soldered correctly, it won't trigger the LM2596 to turn off the supply voltage.
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by AndreyB »

"I also measure zero on the feedback pin and zero on the +5 output."

Anyway, the problem was that the regulator output pin was not soldered. Once this was fixed, the power supply is now functional :)
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by shredator »

is this board on oshpark? I didnt see it
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by AndreyB »

shredator wrote:is this board on oshpark? I didnt see it
It was not shared - I have just fixed that. https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/bzonvhZ8
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by kb1gtt »

I seem to recall there was a R0.3 board with L1 and L2 at a 45 degree angle. It was hard to get an iron on it as it's laid out in R0.1.
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by AndreyB »

kb1gtt wrote:I seem to recall there was a R0.3 board with L1 and L2 at a 45 degree angle. It was hard to get an iron on it as it's laid out in R0.1.
Yep, but this one was never populated separately - I believe it went onto Frankenso right away.
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by AndreyB »

I've accidentally applied reverse 12 volts from a desktop power supply to Frankenso power supply. Looks like this has damaged a 0 Ohm resistor which was soldered to W2. Is that expected behavior?

Once I've replaced 0 Ohm everything else was fine.
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by kb1gtt »

No that's not expected. Q1001 should have gone open circuit with reverse polarity, which wold have saved W2. I also seem to recall you put a wire in for F1001. Then of course you are supposed to have an upstream 3.5A fuse. I'm not seeing how that could happen, so I'm guessing there might be more to the story. Perhaps there was a wire connected to test point P901, or perhaps you were not applying power to the harness, but to P902. Something else seems out of place.
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by Gone_AWOL »

I totally respect your attitude toward trying new things but can some one please explain to me the logic behind using the switch mode power supply? I would like to know the rational before I make any harsh comment.

Heat and inefficient operation is a totally irrelevant for an ecu imo.
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by kb1gtt »

If you consider heat irrelevant, than you can use a linear. I would suggest a switch mode as it's cheaper than putting on a large heat sink. It's also harder to get linear's to play correctly with load dumps and other such transients. I have been attempting to design to the intent of ISO 7637-2. Which means I'm limited in what I can test, and I'm not a qualified ISO MFG so I can't certify it upholds the spec, but I am using it as the design guide and minimum standard.
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Re: Power supply - kb1gtt

Post by Gone_AWOL »

Jared?

Yes heat is largely irrelevant, if the majority of your outputs are low side switched you will find your normal current will be less than 1A, probably less than 300mA.

There are a number of Linear regulators including low drop out regulators which cost $2 or less and are already rated for load dump, its not difficult to achieve immunity to transients in the order of 10000V, these regs also are over temp, over current and over voltage protected and reverse connect protected. I have never had any problem with keeping them cool enough with nothing else other than thermal vias and an appropriate amount of copper on the PCB.

The reason I make this point is largely due to the EMC implications of using a home brew (albeit designed using an online switchmode power supply tool) switch mode power supply. Given the high clock speed of this ecu, and the high switch mode frequency this will be very noisy.

There are good reasons for using a switch mode supply but most of these designs also make good use of a linear reg at some stage due to the excellent CMRR most off the shelf regs inherently have.

Anyway, rant over.. I've been following the progress of this project from a far for quite some time and the efforts are really impressive.
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