let's choose an enclosure

Hardware inside and outside of the ECU
User avatar
kb1gtt
contributor
contributor
Posts: 3649
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:42 am
Location: ME of USA

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by kb1gtt »

What's the total cost of that connector? Most of these are around $1 per connection. That's a pro-rated cost for the shell, cost for the pins on both sides. Which is commonly $100 for the connector.

There are some options from china which are much lower cost, they include pig tails.
Welcome to the friendlier side of internet crazy :)

User avatar
AndreyB
Site Admin
Posts: 10547
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by AndreyB »

stefanst wrote:90s Honda Accord boxes are the cheapest on Ebay
Also about 30% extra real estate. If a honda box board is ever created I would be begging for no 'native' chip option but 2 layer.
Attachments
frankenso_above_honda.jpg
frankenso_above_honda.jpg (1.17 MiB) Viewed 7547 times
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

User avatar
AndreyB
Site Admin
Posts: 10547
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by AndreyB »

Another packaging approach - separate connector pcb and separate ECU pcb, with only wires between.
Attachments
vems.png
vems.png (414.95 KiB) Viewed 7473 times
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

User avatar
mobyfab
Posts: 139
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:09 am
Location: Versailles, France

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by mobyfab »

That's how AEM does it. Except they use headers.

Image
Image

As for finished solution you have this:
http://www.cinch.com/products/modular-integrated-connector-enclosure/

User avatar
Dron_Gus
donator
donator
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:11 pm
Location: S-Pb

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by Dron_Gus »

mobyfab wrote:That's how AEM does it. Except they use headers.

Image
Image

As for finished solution you have this:
http://www.cinch.com/products/modular-integrated-connector-enclosure/
Sorry for offtopic. Does anyone know partnumber of this yellow connector? Seems it the same as subaru used for their early imprezas and legacy bg.

User avatar
AndreyB
Site Admin
Posts: 10547
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by AndreyB »

Dron_Gus wrote: Sorry for offtopic. Does anyone know partnumber of this yellow connector? Seems it the same as subaru used for their early imprezas and legacy bg.
http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Hardware:OEM_connectors#76_pin
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

User avatar
Dron_Gus
donator
donator
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:11 pm
Location: S-Pb

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by Dron_Gus »

Thanks. I should be more attentive. Already bought several from e-bay. Better than unsoldering from dead ecu. :)

puff
contributor
contributor
Posts: 2813
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:28 am
Location: Moskau

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by puff »

$24 shipped from eBay? probably not that bad %-)
what about the mating part? and which enclosure is it compatible with? (it would be handy to have all that stuff on the wiki page)

User avatar
Dron_Gus
donator
donator
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:11 pm
Location: S-Pb

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by Dron_Gus »

puff wrote:$24 shipped from eBay? probably not that bad %-)
what about the mating part? and which enclosure is it compatible with? (it would be handy to have all that stuff on the wiki page)
I'm building RusEFI for exact car, so I have all mating parts in car. :)
Enclosure also from stock subaru ECU like 22611AA810 and many others from early 90's imprezas, foresters, legacys/libertys and so on.
I can update WiKi with at least Impreza JDM and EDM ECU's pinouts and connection diagrams. It was hard to find so it can be also useful for someone outside RusEFI project to.

puff
contributor
contributor
Posts: 2813
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:28 am
Location: Moskau

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by puff »

lucky you are! not sure if a used mating connector, cut off from a crashed vehicle, would be of any use - extending all these wires doesn't seem to be a good idea..

User avatar
Dron_Gus
donator
donator
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:11 pm
Location: S-Pb

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by Dron_Gus »

puff wrote:lucky you are! not sure if a used mating connector, cut off from a crashed vehicle, would be of any use - extending all these wires doesn't seem to be a good idea..
Mating parts are available at Mouser. Just need to dig some documentation about exact part numbers. http://www.te.com/commerce/DocumentDelivery/DDEController?Action=showdoc&DocId=Specification+Or+Standard%7F108-5280%7FF6%7Fpdf%7FJapanese%7FJPN_SS_108-5280_F6.pdf%7F3-178780-6
Looks like mate parts are
26 pins (10 hi-current + 16 low-current) 174516-6
16 pins (all low current) 174514-6
12 pins (all low current) 174913-1
22 pins (6 hi-current + 16 low-current) 174515-6
And terminals 173716-1 or 173716-2 and 173630-1 or 173630-2
All of them are available at Mouser (not sure if it is easy to order to Russia, but I'll try)
So only one problem is PCB connector - 178780-6 - currently available only on eBay from one seller.

User avatar
AndreyB
Site Admin
Posts: 10547
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by AndreyB »

Dron_Gus wrote:So only one problem is PCB connector - 178780-6 - currently available only on eBay from one seller.
I believe this guy sells "old new stock" so once he sells all he has it's over. On the other hand it's easy to remove from a used ECU with a torch.

Added plugs info to the wiki.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239



puff
contributor
contributor
Posts: 2813
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:28 am
Location: Moskau

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by puff »

$24 for a pcb side seems okay. but I guess, the mating part would cost way too much if I order it from Mouser. They are not cheap themselves, plus the cost of delivery makes it not feasible...

User avatar
AndreyB
Site Admin
Posts: 10547
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by AndreyB »

puff wrote:They are not cheap themselves, plus the cost of delivery makes it not feasible...
That's why I enjoy used Honda/Mazda/Toyota connectors :)
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

matt
donator
donator
Posts: 271
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:32 am
Location: Malaysia

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by matt »

look like same with subaru connector, but part number not match.

http://my.rs-online.com/web/p/pcb-connector-housings/7201014/

User avatar
AndreyB
Site Admin
Posts: 10547
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by AndreyB »

Added alternative part number to the wiki. I believe there were multiple versions of 64 pin connector as well, so that's not a surprise.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

matt
donator
donator
Posts: 271
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:32 am
Location: Malaysia

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by matt »

found it with the same part number. left 1 only in stock.
http://my.rs-online.com/web/p/pcb-connector-housings/7200979/

User avatar
Dron_Gus
donator
donator
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:11 pm
Location: S-Pb

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by Dron_Gus »

puff wrote:$24 for a pcb side seems okay. but I guess, the mating part would cost way too much if I order it from Mouser. They are not cheap themselves, plus the cost of delivery makes it not feasible...
I ordered 5 sets of mating connectors + termonals. Total is about $90. Let's see if they accept my order. (They redirect my order to some representative in Saint-P.)

User avatar
mobyfab
Posts: 139
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:09 am
Location: Versailles, France

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by mobyfab »

Often with multilock/molex you have different part numbers for the same connector based on random things like plating so there might be 3-4 compatible references for that one.

Also in this case the pictures are from a civic and a lancer evo, not a subaru. (yellow connector)

User avatar
kb1gtt
contributor
contributor
Posts: 3649
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:42 am
Location: ME of USA

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by kb1gtt »

In the above pictures, it shows an AEM ECU which uses a replaceable ECU connector. Right now Frankenso allows you to re-map your pin out by using a pile of jumper wires in the W## area of the PCB. As well the ECU connector is set to a particular ECU connector. It would be handy to have an adapter area similar to the AEM ECU such that we can swap out this connection with the real world. I don't like the 0.1inch spaced headers for power circuits, as there are many issues caused by the contact resistance of these connectors. I know the devices like the below exist, but they are very pricey and quite bulky.

https://www.phoenixcontact.com/online/portal/us/pxc/product_list_pages/!ut/p/b1/vZTLrqJAEIafxQdA7rclCCpoI9DIbUMQEGmUOwI-_XhmM5nFnLOZ2L3pSir95a-kPjzEA1IkKU7kKV7AfTys4meRx0NRV_H9qw65yJEdVTUpjjxZrExoCrtRj4xN7o8M7uG-kpCGUoNcVZVbTzty0h-0iYkuYq6PqQeseYhLG2pBRwrUUYzGxa1OWuomJq3BTHZP0kPM5Csv0A0yNZK7bev99Zlad-yV0IiLKrXmzifDQUfQa76V1V7u72qdJuf-0G6CHQCZ5KpIoWPkXfhrJy_XCwgCcSnGwtpAmmkVaLnWlN0mqVNGGMTbU80mUYpeGFAoJX6HDL4JKZE_zSB4N_CRuDM4gmI4kthaLCHJlKXzB0ejDgzu4D7BRBAtjfYqXzYiprlXZM1w1IkkSACco_t-03BwDeMoA7Ikll6BM1TOM3TAAgzfTF37LL8_Pbua8xOQ-zSQ_TBw82kg_PRIIf9hIPX_E-p4WFwe6yl5rIl1MyfrpqvTMRmie9EPURPnWY-7ejLxb3lMqurbg7thDJnFbq0NjFLWiUK5OFIOozw383HC3EET6CwQQID2j-WW7ByJQYVxHQBlDNN8GvlO03YzFiCpOT8tfQEyY2M3zdyLc3nLA17epkSbh97RY0yxNvQLM5ZJnIflK6UpEZ1zxsAgdTKhcFAefizusLi7ewt7aZs8TSFs2UOr3AvX69i4frZEfSdfnfY0kzYbp9XqLcPwW1d8qeR3A_GPIxE4zKroDCPT35whbuzrR_bTMvzxi9CBY4J0BzC9kJAmTGgbLVNzKGlXnupKb9KSHa-NPceVfgvuIYYqr7E6Kd_AFikk_gi7BYv_uhcCMbtcWq1-AUL8_mk!/?uri=pxc-oc-itemdetail:pid=1915754&library=usen&pcck=P-11-02-11&tab=1

Is there a low cost high reliably way to allow for an interchangeable ECU connector?
Welcome to the friendlier side of internet crazy :)

Abricos
contributor
contributor
Posts: 783
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:32 am

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by Abricos »

Attachments
IMG_20130701_132009.jpg
IMG_20130701_132009.jpg (186.79 KiB) Viewed 7261 times

User avatar
mobyfab
Posts: 139
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:09 am
Location: Versailles, France

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by mobyfab »

Maybe we can use PCIe or m2 connectors for signals? (slot the adapter board directly in it)
Even an SAS drive connector? http://www.molex.com/molex/products/family?key=serial_attached_scsi_sff_8484&channel=products&chanName=family&pageTitle=Introduction&parentKey=board_to_board_connectors
As long as it's widely used it should not be too hard to find cheap ones.

DIN 41612?
Molex has some options for power as well.
Last edited by mobyfab on Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Abricos
contributor
contributor
Posts: 783
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:32 am

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by Abricos »

same connector and adapter?
Attachments
s-l500.jpg
s-l500.jpg (37.86 KiB) Viewed 7259 times

User avatar
kb1gtt
contributor
contributor
Posts: 3649
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:42 am
Location: ME of USA

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by kb1gtt »

I kind of like the adapter harness, but I fear a need to make changes in the field, which wold want crimp tools, quality control, ect.

I think a board does not need to be hot-swap-able. Also I'm not crazy about small contacts carrying large currents, especially when they are inductive currents. The small ohms of the connector cause some funky tank circuits. I'm tempted to think it should be a soldered option to ensure minimal connection resistance.

I see 0R's are not very expensive, but would require some soldering. Perhaps several of these as a kind of bridge between the boards.
https://octopart.com/zr0207-te+connectivity-16078019

Can we find a restocking kit of these bread board wire kits? Per the below link, it appears the 5cm, 8cm and 10cm are common wire lengths.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-Mix-kit-13valuesx40pcs-420pcs-Breadboard-Jumper-5cm-8cm-10cm-Connect-Cable-Wire-Tin-DIY/32707356972.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.354.R3EDH3&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_3_10152_10065_10151_10068_10130_10150_10084_10083_10080_10082_10081_10110_10136_10137_10111_10060_10138_10112_10113_10062_10114_10141_10056_10055_10054_10059_10099_129_10078_10079_10103_10073_10102_10096_10070_10148_10123_10147_10052_10053_10124_10142_10107_10050_10143_10051,searchweb201603_9,afswitch_1,ppcSwitch_7&btsid=9dda2959-7c8a-4d5e-b765-84f74098aeb9&algo_expid=6198fb91-331c-4e1c-9e08-0534732637cc-41&algo_pvid=6198fb91-331c-4e1c-9e08-0534732637cc

This one is 400pcs Breadboard Jumper Cable 24AWG Black And Red Electronic Wires Tinned 6cm
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/400pcs-Motherboard-Breadboard-Jumper-Cable-Black-And-Red-Electronic-Wires-Tinned-6cm-Electronic-Components-Accessories/32739614496.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.37.TxW0bj&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_3_10152_10065_10151_10068_10130_10150_10084_10083_10080_10082_10081_10110_10136_10137_10111_10060_10138_10112_10113_10062_10114_10141_10056_10055_10054_10059_10099_129_10078_10079_10103_10073_10102_10096_10070_10148_10123_10147_10052_10053_10124_10142_10107_10050_10143_10051,searchweb201603_9,afswitch_1,ppcSwitch_7&btsid=56ad019e-b767-4c11-b9d8-1106288e502a&algo_expid=389c1655-605d-442f-9b01-e130eabdd473-4&algo_pvid=389c1655-605d-442f-9b01-e130eabdd473

I would guess a solder fountain could not be justified with these quantities. See about 3 minutes into this video.
[video][/video]
Welcome to the friendlier side of internet crazy :)


User avatar
AndreyB
Site Admin
Posts: 10547
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by AndreyB »

a resistor is about 3mm in diameter, 4mm to be safe, We would only fit 40 of these on the width of the board - not enough. We need at least a 2 row connector / wiring approach.

So the 0.1 inch header is rated at 3A and you say you do not like combining multiple pins to share load? how much current do we want on the most loaded super GND pin?
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

User avatar
mobyfab
Posts: 139
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:09 am
Location: Versailles, France

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by mobyfab »

I still think pin headers would work fine as long as you share the load.
If AEM still does it, it must be working fine, they've been doing this for 20+ years.

This is the current design for their EMS V2: (found on a supra forum)

https://s10.postimg.org/60ej4dv45/IMG_6784_zps0dmmphzg.jpg
https://s10.postimg.org/ek2ifvsud/IMG_6803_zpszwbjxxdu.jpg

Note that they have coil drivers (so 10A+ ) directly on the "adapter" board but their other outputs (~3A) on the motherboard.
Attachments
IMG_6803_zpszwbjxxdu.jpg
IMG_6803_zpszwbjxxdu.jpg (699.22 KiB) Viewed 7233 times
IMG_6784_zps0dmmphzg.jpg
IMG_6784_zps0dmmphzg.jpg (1.01 MiB) Viewed 7233 times

User avatar
kb1gtt
contributor
contributor
Posts: 3649
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:42 am
Location: ME of USA

Re: let's choose an enclosure

Post by kb1gtt »

You can install every other resistor, then install the remaining resistors such that you stagger the resistors. AKA some touch the PCB others are stacked on top of the resistors that are touching the PCB. The key issue I see with this is the assembly labor. That will likely be more costly than what ever jumper device is chosen.

They also make arrays like this which might help with the assembly labor.
http://datasheet.octopart.com/4116R-1-102LF-Bourns-datasheet-11047067.pdf

I don't know the exact layout of that picture, but it appears they put the sensitive high impedance analog between the high speed digital and high frequency power switch mode power supply. It appears that unintentional radiators are likely to couple into the analog circuits on that PCB. Also that pile of apparent power transistors is likely a bit weak in thermal design. Even if each of those transistors are only making a like 1mW of energy, those devices in the middle of the pack are likely to get really hot. If they added some thermal via's it would allow the entire array of components to get much hotter before you ran into issues. I'm not particular impressed with that layout, but perhaps I'm just being too critical. Perhaps my concerns are overly conservative from the design standpoint.
Welcome to the friendlier side of internet crazy :)

Post Reply