[info] Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case / official

Hardware inside and outside of the ECU
sleepingAwake
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

Post by sleepingAwake »

Alright next minor issue.
The resistors on the cam and crank inputs are 5k but the kit came with 4.7k or 5.6k resistors.

Is this another case where substitution is ok?

R102-R104 and R106-R112 are the resistors in question.
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

Post by AndreyB »

sleepingAwake wrote:Alright next minor issue.
The resistors on the cam and crank inputs are 5k but the kit came with 4.7k or 5.6k resistors.
I believe in case of Hall sensor that's really does not matter - @ do you agree?

I also know that four pairs of these work as 5k+5k=10K resistor. So if we do 4.7K+5.6K=10.3K we are 3% away of the target 10K - @ do you agree?

Jared what do we want for R111 and R112?
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

Post by kb1gtt »

I seem to recall that 10k is a fairly generic value from the datasheet. I used 2x 5k resistors to get an increased stand off voltage. The 10k is primarily to prevent over current of the rail clamping diodes, as the sensor will typically see more than 5V and can go below 0V.

I would agree that 4.7k and 5.6k is close enough. Slightly more resistance is good as it would minimize the amount of current dumped when you exceed the rails.

I agree that for a hall sensor, the resistance value is even less important.

R111 and R112 are not normally populated, so leave these empty.
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

Post by sleepingAwake »

Thanks again.
Onto the next one.

C103 shows 10uf in the schematic but I dont think thats right.
Its located in the cam and crank input area.

Just noticed its referenced in the component options page as well. Maybe im wrong. Its just that it wasnt included in the kit and 10uf seems high for an smd cap.
Last edited by sleepingAwake on Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

Post by sleepingAwake »

kb1gtt wrote:I seem to recall that 10k is a fairly generic value from the datasheet. I used 2x 5k resistors to get an increased stand off voltage. The 10k is primarily to prevent over current of the rail clamping diodes, as the sensor will typically see more than 5V and can go below 0V.

I would agree that 4.7k and 5.6k is close enough. Slightly more resistance is good as it would minimize the amount of current dumped when you exceed the rails.

I agree that for a hall sensor, the resistance value is even less important.

R111 and R112 are not normally populated, so leave these empty.
Since I'll be using the stock Subaru VR sensors and they tend to be noisy should I try it with those resistors?
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

Post by AndreyB »

Our documentations sucks.

Would anyone be available to help with https://sourceforge.net/p/rusefi/tickets/344/ ? That would be a tiny step forward.
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

Post by kb1gtt »

sleepingAwake wrote:Since I'll be using the stock Subaru VR sensors and they tend to be noisy should I try it with those resistors?
I remembered to bring home the scope. I hope to have a better answer later today.
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

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russian wrote:Our documentations sucks.

Would anyone be available to help with https://sourceforge.net/p/rusefi/tickets/344/ ? That would be a tiny step forward.
I'll try taking a couple photos of mine and see how they look.

Also I think my question about the 10uf caps got missed. C103 in the cam/crank pickup area.
Value wasn't included in the kit. I'll order what I have to but I want to make sure it's right.
There was another spot where a 10uf cap was called for to I think.
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

Post by AndreyB »

sleepingAwake wrote:Also I think my question about the 10uf caps got missed. C103 in the cam/crank pickup area.
Value wasn't included in the kit.
which values around 10uf do you have in your bag of parts?
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

Post by sleepingAwake »

russian wrote:
sleepingAwake wrote:Also I think my question about the 10uf caps got missed. C103 in the cam/crank pickup area.
Value wasn't included in the kit.
which values around 10uf do you have in your bag of parts?
None. 1uf is the highest value included.
I could try and stack 10 on top of each other? <--joke
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

Post by sleepingAwake »

I pulled a 10uf cap off another board I had laying around.

However it doesn't match the footprint for C103
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

Post by AndreyB »

Did the poking. You need a 10uf.

Once i am home on Saturday I want to go over the 0805 bags I have an make the official list of what is there. If that kit is not right maybe I need to start choosing a 0805 bag better.
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

Post by sleepingAwake »

russian wrote:Did the poking. You need a 10uf.

Once i am home on Saturday I want to go over the 0805 bags I have an make the official list of what is there. If that kit is not right maybe I need to start choosing a 0805 bag better.
Thanks for checking into it.
I'm sorry to say the kit is also lacking any 4.7uf caps

Are there particular part numbers or parts you've spec'd out? Not sure what voltage rating, ESR, and most importantly what footprint the parts need.
The 10uf cap I pulled off something else wont fit the pads. I also have no idea what its other specs are.
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

Post by AndreyB »

Everything is 0805 on the board.

4.7uF,5,"C19 C354 C358 C472 C501",TDK,CGA4J3X5R1H475K125AB,DIGI,445-7882-6-ND

c19 you are not populating with discovery
C354 is close to FDTI
C358 is close to SD card
C472 is close to CAN
C501 is close to HIP9011

Jared any chance to unify any? all? of these with 10uf to simplify BOM? Any acceptable ranges for any of these?
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

Post by kb1gtt »

If your ordering from digikey, the R0.5 has this part in the BOM. It's slightly lower voltage and costs a little less.
http://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=490-3905-1-ND
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

Post by puff »

C354 is close to FDTI
C358 is close to SD card
C472 is close to CAN
C501 is close to HIP9011
Снимок экрана 2017-01-23 в 23.23.13.png
Снимок экрана 2017-01-23 в 23.23.13.png (75.79 KiB) Viewed 17904 times
Isn't this a symbol for electrolytic capacitor?
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

Post by sleepingAwake »

puff wrote:
C354 is close to FDTI
C358 is close to SD card
C472 is close to CAN
C501 is close to HIP9011
Снимок экрана 2017-01-23 в 23.23.13.png
Isn't this a symbol for electrolytic capacitor?
I noticed the same thing.
In addition C354 and C358 are electrolytic in the schematic.
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

Post by kb1gtt »

Yes the schematic shows electrolytic. Then when I choose parts, I was able to get polarity independent caps. I didn't bother to go back and change the schematic.
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

Post by AndreyB »

added to https://svn.code.sf.net/p/rusefi/code/trunk/hardware/frankenso/known_issues.txt
129) silkscreen not under but next to component: R1001 R1002 D1001 etc?
130) C472, C354 and C358 are electrolytic in the schematic
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

Post by AndreyB »

C354 is connected to an external 5V, which could see much higher spikes of voltage, so it's a 50V cap. The 10uF is a 10V cap. I think the voltage for this would be important for long term reliability. Voltage surges on a cap can cause some really odd behaviors. You generally want to keep normal operation at a minimum 80% of the rated voltage, and it's common that 50% is suggested.

C358, C472 could perhaps change. I'd have to check the loading of the 3.3V. This increased uF's would cause more electrical draw and slower discharge times of the 3.3V. These changes in time could cause some problems, but are probably OK. Either I can analyze it, or we can try it and see what happens. If it's a problem I would expect it would be noticeable quite quickly.

C501 should be fine to change. The 5V is already well protected against surging, and the 10uF's 10V is 2x the voltage, so you should be in the safe operating range. The 50V of the 4.7uF is a safer voltage, but the 10uF's 10V should be safe enough. As well any ESR issues are taken care of with the near by 0.1uF. So we shouldn't need to be concerned with changes to the ESR of this cap.
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

Post by AndreyB »

russian wrote:
C354 is connected to an external 5V
So it looks like C354 is the only one. Since C354 is about 5v from USB does it provide the assurance needed to feel safe with 10uf 10v?

Or should we unify all 4.7uf and 10uf as 10uf 50v? so why not use same 10uf 50v for C103 and C19 C354 C358 C472 C501?
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

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The 10uF was 10V not 50V. The 4.7uF was 50V.
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

Post by AndreyB »

Since I do not know anything i was making a naive suggestion to upgrade to 50v? Or does it not work like that?
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

Post by puff »

probably 10v is a limitation for 10uF in 0805.
This increased uF's would cause more electrical draw and slower discharge times of the 3.3V. These changes in time could cause some problems, but are probably OK
some rare case when more capacitance is not always better.. :-)
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

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If we keep the same general cap technology, generally as uF's go up, the voltage goes down. There are often expectations, like if you pay more $, some times that can get more uF's at a higher voltage. You can get 1uF at like 100V, then 4.7uF at 50V, then 10uF at 10V. You might be able to find a 10uF at 50V, but it will probably cost more, and will probably be harder to find. I have not found one yet, we are likely already spending the extra $ to get it up to the 50V and 10V. I don't currently know of a 10uF 50V 0805 cap.
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

Post by puff »

10uf 25v cap TMK316BJ106KL-T qty 10
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Re: Frankenso - ECU shield compatible with OEM case

Post by sleepingAwake »

puff wrote:
10uf 25v cap TMK316BJ106KL-T qty 10
Well i sure hope that was the right one. Its listed as such in the Frankenso 0.4 BOM but i just looked at the spec sheet and its a 1206 package.
Perhaps kb1gtt can comment.
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