Ion Sense

Hardware inside and outside of the ECU
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by Spilly »

g68h50 wrote: thanks for the comment. regarding schemes with a charge from the ignition coil - capacitor is quickly discharged and will not give an accurate picture of the ION current. to get a beautiful picture need a current mirror with external power.
How about increasing the gain of the measurement amplifier proportionally with the voltage droop of the discharging capacitor? That appears to be what the patent linked above is doing.
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by Horizenjob »

I noticed in one of the papers for the ion sensing stuff that they were using a very highclamp voltage on their coil, 1000 volts. Maybe this is because they are using a lower inductance just to try and get less low pass filtering of the signal. Trying to read a high frequency signal on the other side of such an inductor seems difficult. You could improve the signal a lot by providing a by pass cap across the high voltage side of the coil. Maybe you could build this into the PCB itself if you have the coil driver on the coil. Might make for a thick PCB, but still worth it. That would also help with such a high clamp voltage by keeping it off long wires under the hood.
Last edited by Horizenjob on Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by g68h50 »

http://forum.cxem.net/index.php?showtopic=122423&hl=%20ток%20%20ионизации&st=160
This forum is described very detailed scheme of the control ion current. Information in Russian, but there are links to the patents.(http://www.google.com/patents/US6883509)
The complexity of the scheme depends on what you want. For simple control of detonation is enough for more simple circuits, but they should still try to replicate and debug ;)
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by AndreyB »

@ needs help locating high-voltage diodes on digikey. Should be 10-15kV Voltage - DC Reverse, like hvm15
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Re: Ion Sense

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russian wrote:@ needs help locating high-voltage diodes on digikey. Should be 10-15kV Voltage - DC Reverse, like hvm15
The only diodes I can find are several hundred dollars. How about using multiple lower cost diodes in series?
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by AndreyB »

HVM15 - http://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=0virtualkey0virtualkeyHVM15 - description 15 000v, specification 1 500v. They might have an error?
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by Spilly »

russian wrote:HVM15 - http://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=0virtualkey0virtualkeyHVM15 - description 15 000v, specification 1 500v. They might have an error?
Well that's embarrassing. I see that mouser has the HVM15 in stock. However, their search system does not allow you to find the HVM15 based on a Vr > 10k. Is the HVM15 an acceptable solution?
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by kb1gtt »

Could you use many generic 1N4007's, they are plentiful and there are many sources to get them. The above noted diode is $3.18 and handles .35A continuous. The below would cost $2.28 for the 15kV and can handle 1A continuous.

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Fairchild-Semiconductor/1N4007/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuQUXCJI7Y4lvWy%252b1U8RtCq

Keep in mind the diode can only hold off a certain voltage, you will likely need to pot the thing to get a proper voltage and creepage. Potting is a concern in terms of thermal considerations. This is a bonus for the 1N4007, as more diodes spreads the heat and makes it easier to get the heat out.
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by Spilly »

kb1gtt wrote:From the ohms meter, I find this coil is just 2 coils, it did not appear to have the diodes, but it would have the coils in such a way that you can obtain the ion signal.
Generally two terminals are for the logic level triggering circuit and the other two are the connections for the transformer secondary.
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by kb1gtt »

I guess I burnt it up, so I can cut it apart now and see if it had internal igniters or not. I'm pretty sure it was just a coil and did not have integrated igniters. I think this mostly because I got what I believe was a 400V to 500V arc somewhere between the ABCD pins. I had poor insulation and it arced over, then failed.
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by Rhinoman »

g68h50 wrote: regarding schemes with a charge from the ignition coil - capacitor is quickly discharged and will not give an accurate picture of the ION current. to get a beautiful picture need a current mirror with external power.
I've used the Woodward coil in an OEM application, I believe the newer Harleys use a similar scheme as well.
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Re: Ion Sense

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On speeduino forum someone has mention "SAAB 9-3 9-3X 2005-2011 Combustion Detection Module" I wonder what exactly does this module do and would it require any magic spark plugs or not?
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by kb1gtt »

This seems to indicate it uses a 400V supply to create spark, then it captures and holds 80V on the plugs. Then the "DET" lines presumably look at the voltage to determine the ionization. AKA more ion's causes the 80V to discharge faster which equals higher cyl temps. I believe it requires magic coils, but not magic plugs.
https://www.autozone.com/repairguides/9-3-1999/Components-Systems/Ignition-Discharge-Module/_/P-0996b43f821a4b8f
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by Rhinoman »

Its usually 400V fly-back from the spark that's used to charge a cap to around 80V to power the ion sense circuit. The patents are on line somewhere.
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Re: Ion Sense

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I believe it might be this one: https://patents.google.com/patent/US4648367A/en

My goto for a lot of this OEM tech is patent listings, there is often more detail there than you can find anywhere else.

While looking for this I found a couple of similar patents from Ford and Mitsubishi.
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Re: Ion Sense

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Since I am in a big city with some car dismantles I've got myself some parts to play with. Diagrams are at https://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Vehicle:Saab_9-3_2005
Trionic T8 does not have a conventional knock sensor and instead uses the spark plugs as sensors for ionization current measurement.

A voltage of 120V is continuously applied across the spark plugs. As the pressure and temperature are very high in conjunction with combustion the gases in the combustion chamber will be electrically conductive so that electric current can flow across the spark plug gap without causing a spark.

The degree of ionization (current) is reflected in the conditions in the combustion chamber. By analyzing the ionization current ECM can determine whether combustion is normal or misfiring and whether there is knocking.

The ignition coils of the respective cylinders generate an ionization voltage= measure the ionization current and send the results to CDM for initial processing of the ionization signal from the respective ignition coil-

CDM generates a knock signal from the ionization information from the four cylinders and the signal is used by ECM to determine whether the engine is knocking. Once the spark has ignited ECM will "listen" to the knock signal of each cylinder for a specific number of crankshaft degrees: a so called window.

Identifying Piston Position
Suppose a spark has been generated in cylinder 1 and 4. CDM will detect this because it is connected to the ignition nigger line of the respective ignition coils. CDM analyses the ionization signal from ignition coil pin 4 for cylinder 1 pin 16 and cylinder 4 pin 15 on CDM.

The cylinder in which combustion has taken place will produce a powerful ionization signal.

If combustion takes place in cylinder 1 then CDM will send a pulse from pin 4 to ECM pin 20(B) and from CDM pin 11 to ECM pin 21(B) if in cylinder 4. With regard to cylinders 2 and 3: if combustion takes place in cylinder 2: a pulse will be sent from CDM pin 11 to ECM pin 21(B) and cylinder 3 a pulse from CDM pin 4 to pin 20(B) on ECM.

W'hen combustion signals arrive on ECM pins 20(B) and 21(B)= the firing order and fuel injection will be synchronized

Knock detection
CDM analyses the ionization signals from pin 4 on the respective ignition coils.

CDM synchronizes the ionization current measurement with the firing order and generates a knock signal that is sent to ECM on pin #3.
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by AndreyB »

http://forums.haltech.com/viewtopic.php?t=11498 has some info and they say
I know Saab's with ION sensing have to use NGK resistor spark plugs tough. Failing to use resistor plugs might fry the Coils/ION sensing stuff. It might also play a role in the ION sensing stuff too. Important to remember if you retrofit on another engine.
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Re: Ion Sense

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looks like Mazda uses very similar looking coils? http://www.mcx5.org/ion_sensor-1281.html
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Re: Ion Sense

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No luck so far :( Open question what is the next step

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Re: Ion Sense

Post by kb1gtt »

Next step, post a schematic which shows what you did. The digital signal may simply need a small pull up resistor. It is hard to comment as I do not know what you have done.
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by AndreyB »

Reminder that we have schematics on https://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Vehicle:Saab_9-3_2005

At the moment rusEfi has 4 outputs - individual cylinder signals. All four signals are wires to saab black box. Two of these signals are also wired into miata COPs since I only have 2 saab COPs at the moment.

black box wiring is a bit trivia. It has only 13 wires, but 4 of these are coil control signal, another 4 are ion sensing wire from COPs, two are GND and +12v

This leaves us with only 3 "interesting" wires.
#3 Yellow/Blue analog magic
#4 Green/Blue Cyl #1 or Cyl #3 combustion detected
#11 Blue/White Cyl #2 or Cyl #4 combustion detected

On the second video we see that analog magic yellow wire shows very low volts signal while pulled-up combustion detected shows something. On next video I should remove spark wire while car would be running so that we can see if combustion detected signal changes share at all. Also would be interesting to see if analog magic signal would react to disconnected spark in any way.



PS: more docs http://www.ieeecss.org/CSM/library/1998/oct1998/02-EngineFineTuner.pdf
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by andreika »

russian wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:37 am
#3 Yellow/Blue analog magic
Why do you call it "analog magic"? We already know 100% - that's a knock detection analog signal. If the voltage level is low, it means there's no detonation. It seems that the system works just fine.
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by puff »

so, it is coils and controllers that make all this magic work. could you please remind, what are the benefits compared to convenional knock detection methods? better reliability? no need to fine-tune?
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by kb1gtt »

Can you capture these signals with the spark control signal as one of the signals? This allows us to see how these signals vary relative to the spark currents.

You could try to induce a knock with the diesel blend, Coleman fuel, or starter fluid.

Try and shorten the lead between GND and the black box. I'd bet that decreases your analog like signal. I think your analog signal may be voltage drop across the wire.

The posted schematic shows 4 coils for 1 black box. Are you only missing the 2 extra coils? Do you need a second black box?

I traced the below. I see your noted single yel/blu analog signal, which must be analog communicating about the 4 channels. I also see what appears to be ECU signals on pin 4 of the coils. Are those your spark control signals connected to the Frankenso's ignition outputs?

01 blu/wht = coil 4 pin 3 something / ECU something
02 org/wht = coil 3 pin 3 something / ECU something
03 yel/blu = ECU magic
04 grn/blu = ECU magic
05 NC
06 NC
07 grn = coil 2 pin 4 sense line
08 wht = coil 3 pin 4 sense line
09 org/wht = coil 1 pin 3 something / ECU something
10 org/wht = coil 2 pin 3 something / ECU something
11 blu/wht = ECU magic
12 red = 12V+
13 blk = 12V-
14 NC
15 blu = coil 4 pin 4 sense line
16 gry = coil 1 pin 4 sense line
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by Abricos »

diesel blend not working we already tried ...
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by kb1gtt »

When generating knock, you really need to add some load. With out load the increased pressure simply pushes the piston along and doesn't build up the pressure. If you add some load, then the piston pressures will increase, and you'll start to get knocking.
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by puff »

I've read once again the explanaion above and don't see any magic in those 'magic' pins of that magic box anymore.
Pin 3 of the magic box sets high, when it sees knock. (btw, try start moving on idle with a handbrake - won't it start knocking?)
Pins 4&11 are needed for synchronization (You just fire a spark in two cylinders simultaneously - wasted spark, and the magic box will track ion sense and will set high eiher pin4 or pin 11, depending on in which of the two cylinders the spark was not acually wasted)

trying to figure out the part numbers - they are quite pricey I should say. but they seem to allow much better fault diagnostics. Wondering, what's inside that magic box, is it difficult to reverse engineer it? will these work on any sparkplug, on any engine wihout any additional fine-tuning?
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by kb1gtt »

Ion sense is fairly well known. We expect the ion sense voltage is around 80V to 300V. The magic is mostly a reference to our lack of understanding about what this black box is doing. Does it generate a signal based on detected detonation? Does it generate a signal proportional to the cylinder temperature? If it generates a signal, how many volts does it generate? As well what are the signal delays or signal manipulations? There are many analog things which we do not know about this black box. So until it's better understood, it's magic.
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by AndreyB »

russian wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:37 pm
looks like Mazda uses very similar looking coils? http://www.mcx5.org/ion_sensor-1281.html
So that PE2018100A coil is used on a lot of different recent Mazdas - 3 6 CX-5 2013-2017 probably more. Part of skyactiv maybe?
These ones seem to handle everything inside the main ECU, not with an external block like Saab. http://nema.club/2014wsm/service%20highlights/books/n6w01/html/id0140g0004400.html
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by AndreyB »

All the components inside the Ionization Detection Module 12787708 box are surprisingly small - nothing big for high voltage?

Smaller chips seem to be saying S8TJ 22A0 and S84J 21H0 - google knows nothing.

The bigger chip seem to say H56968JFP or N56968JFP or M56968JFP. M56968JFP seems to be related to RENESAS in google.

(image removed - couple of posts below there is a better picture)
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