Ion Sense

Hardware inside and outside of the ECU
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by nighthunter »

kb1gtt wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:18 pm
Perhaps the digital signal is put into a low pass filter, creating an analog signal at the ECU, while a digital signal is what is passed to the ECU.
Exact, that explains the lowpass on the ionsense ecu (carbon film resitor + c) on the pictures of open older sense module
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Re: Ion Sense

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Today i found this article wich describes another version of ion sensing module.

http://www.frankencis.com/Forum/aft/28
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Re: Ion Sense

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nighthunter wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:57 pm
CHI1/Yellow - E1 control for COP1 pin9
CHI3/Purple - I1 feedback from COP1 to ION module pin 16
So the coil itself is producing what seems like a digital signal?! You keep us hanging, we need more channels - ION module knock output is the one I am most interested in. Please record a video with more channels, this is very valuable data for us!
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Re: Ion Sense

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Yes, it comes from coil itself. I will record all the data on weekend as i am now far from my workshop. There will be a load of videos.
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Re: Ion Sense

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nighthunter wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:05 pm
Yes, it comes from coil itself. I will record all the data on weekend as i am now far from my workshop. There will be a load of videos.
Can you disconnect the ion sensing module and record the signals from and to the coils?
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Re: Ion Sense

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andreika wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:19 pm
nighthunter wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:05 pm
Yes, it comes from coil itself. I will record all the data on weekend as i am now far from my workshop. There will be a load of videos.
Can you disconnect the ion sensing module and record the signals from and to the coils?
Yes, ive planning to record this experiment too.
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Re: Ion Sense

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kb1gtt wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:28 am
Those solid extensions would likely be better than the flexible wire extensions. However right now I would wager a guess that your bigger issue is the long-ish ground path for the spark. If you could some how add a GND strap from your harness to the engine block, that would likely help allot.
I have great news to report! With just two solid Ferrari extenders (yes, I totally enjoy saying "Ferrari". Do you have Ferrari parts? I do!) the car has started on two cylinders and when I rev it all cylinders fire. Time to order a few more of these Ferrari (!) extenders :)

Similar cheaper option in Europe: E015D 5416220 https://shop.citroenclassics.co.uk/spark-plug-extension-l53mm-114-p.asp "Extension which screws onto the top of the spark plug. 53mm long for all D models 1966. Also fits early CX models and H vans. Use the insulating tubes below with these."
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Re: Ion Sense

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russian wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:49 am
kb1gtt wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:28 am
Those solid extensions would likely be better than the flexible wire extensions. However right now I would wager a guess that your bigger issue is the long-ish ground path for the spark. If you could some how add a GND strap from your harness to the engine block, that would likely help allot.
I have great news to report! With just two solid Ferrari extenders (yes, I totally enjoy saying "Ferrari". Do you have Ferrari parts? I do!) the car has started on two cylinders and when I rev it all cylinders fire. Time to order a few more of these Ferrari (!) extenders :)

Similar cheaper option in Europe: E015D 5416220 https://shop.citroenclassics.co.uk/spark-plug-extension-l53mm-114-p.asp "Extension which screws onto the top of the spark plug. 53mm long for all D models 1966. Also fits early CX models and H vans. Use the insulating tubes below with these."
The wire extenders use resistive spark wire!! This will confuse the sensing circuitry in the COPs. Thats great when it works with solid extenders. Most of them are only straight wire, not resistive in comparison to the wire ones.
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Re: Ion Sense

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Hi friends, mission acomplished. Waveforms newly recorded and stored, videos recorded. Stay tuned, as i have a slower upload. I must upload commented videos. Here are raw wfms for people having an rigol scope. Just use Storage -> type Waveform, > Load.
https://ufile.io/9s7nj

Here table of description for the waveform data

Update: files also available at https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi_logs/tree/master/logs/2003_opel_vectra_ion/waveforms--kopie_2018_12_16
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Snímek obrazovky pořízený 2018-12-17 09-36-37.png
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Last edited by nighthunter on Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ion Sense

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Here is a short raw footage, of accel/decel. COP trigger signal #1 and knock output are CH1, CH2, ion module outputs M1 (combustion signal #) ,M2 are on CH3,CH4, (from up to down)

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Re: Ion Sense

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For those who wants to view the WFMs. This is a pretty good working software. http://www.soasystem.com/download/visadso/
Heres a screen how the cranking syncing goes
ICOP1 input 1, cop input 2, M1 output, M2 output
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Re: Ion Sense

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COP input yellow, vs COP output green
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Re: Ion Sense

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E1, E3, M1, M2 (COP inputs vs ion sense M outputs) about 900rpms
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Re: Ion Sense

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Same but 1500rpms
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Re: Ion Sense

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2000rpms
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Re: Ion Sense

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From the SAAB manual for Trionic 8 (2004 model):
schem_inside_cop.PNG
schem_inside_cop.PNG (68.6 KiB) Viewed 11691 times
So as I can guess, Trionic 5 and 7 used an analog ion sensing module for CDI ignition, but newer Trionic 8 is an ordinary coil ignition system (primary/secondary winding on the schematics above)?..
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Re: Ion Sense

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On the left SAAB H6T60271

On the right Mazda H6T61171 - these are a bit longer and narrower, seem to fit my Miata engine. If we get Saab to work I would try to switch to these.

Also I've measured Saab 9-3 spark plug resistance: AP 5503 R=6Kohm
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Re: Ion Sense

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So, first million dollar question: why do we sometimes see one pulse per cylinder while sometimes we see two pulses per cylinder?
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Re: Ion Sense

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I think ive discovered it yesterday. When decelerating there is only one impulse. This lets me thinking about, one small pulse is spark occurence and second impulse combustion detected. Watch also the width while revving up/down.
Last edited by nighthunter on Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ion Sense

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nighthunter wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:32 pm
Here is a short raw footage, of accel/decel. COP inputs for 1st and knock ion output are COP - CH1,Knock - CH2, ion module outputs M1 (combustion signal #) ,M2 are on CH3,CH4, (from up to down)

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Re: Ion Sense

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There is missing only one thing. This week ill record COP outputs vs. M1 and M2.
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Re: Ion Sense

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nighthunter wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:17 pm
Here are raw wfms for people having an rigol scope. Just use Storage -> type Waveform, > Load.
https://ufile.io/9s7nj
Could you please give a short text description for every file name in the archive (including the channel legends)?
For instance, what's in c1d4.wfm, i14.wfm and ie234.wfm ? What's the difference between e1e4m1m2runtg1.wfm and e1e4m1m2runtg3.wfm, etc.?
Why is Channel3 sometimes 50V/div and Channel4 is 10V/div? This is somewhat confusing imho...
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Re: Ion Sense

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andreika wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:19 am
nighthunter wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:17 pm
Here are raw wfms for people having an rigol scope. Just use Storage -> type Waveform, > Load.
https://ufile.io/9s7nj
Could you please give a short text description for every file name in the archive (including the channel legends)?
For instance, what's in c1d4.wfm, i14.wfm and ie234.wfm ? What's the difference between e1e4m1m2runtg1.wfm and e1e4m1m2runtg3.wfm, etc.?
Why is Channel3 sometimes 50V/div and Channel4 is 10V/div? This is somewhat confusing imho...
Im running now out of free time. You must wait a little. I am preparing videos and also description for the files. Ill just uploaded raw material, so anyone could have a preview, whats recorded. Generally the files are named like this:
CH1CH2CH3CH4operatingconditionTRIGGERARMINGCHANNEL or CH1CH2CH3CH4tgTRIGGERARMCHANNELoperatingcondition.
I know the names are a little weird, but turning names on the Rigol scopes rortary encoder operated GUI, placed on engine with probes around is a little hard.
The 50V/div probe had attenuation set to 1 accidentally by the manipulation on some shots.
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Re: Ion Sense

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nighthunter wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:02 pm
For those who wants to view the WFMs. This is a pretty good working software. http://www.soasystem.com/download/visadso/
I am able to view WFM files using VisaDSO - I understand how to move forward/backwards in the recording.
Update: double-clicking on TIME label in the bottom center of the image allows to change scale. Thank you @
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by AndreyB »

Pull-ups reverse engineering on my Ion Mold test mule

Ignition ON, car is not running
CDM connector disconnected from CDM module
Intake air sensor 4 pin connector (bottom-right corner of ECU schematics on https://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Vehicle:Saab_9-3_2005#ECU) disconnected

Voltage measurments:
Knock signal and combustion signals on CDM connector read +5v. Looks like there are pull-ups inside ECU on all three signal lines?
pins B (brn/wht) and C (org/wht) on intake air sensor connector read +5v

now ignition OFF
CDM connector still disconnected from CDM module
Intake air sensor 4 pin connector still disconnected

continuity measurment:
intake air sensor connector pin A (blk) shows continuity to ground

looks like intake air sensor connector pin C (org/wht) is +5v power source

resistance measurments:
between knock signal pin on CDM connector and intake air sensor connector pin A (org/wht) - 0.8Kohm
between combustion detection pin on CDM connector and intake air sensor connector pin C (org/wht) - 5.0Kohm
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Re: Ion Sense

Post by kb1gtt »

On the module, you could measure the ohms of those 3 signals. Then if you measure the 5V when connected, you could calculate the internal ohms of the 5V pull up's.
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Re: Ion Sense

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nighthunter wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:17 pm
Hi friends, mission acomplished. Waveforms newly recorded and stored, videos recorded.
I've uploaded your files to https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi_logs/tree/master/logs/2003_opel_vectra_ion/waveforms--kopie_2018_12_16 just to increase the chances of saving them for the long run.

c1d4.wfm is an interesting file - two ion channels with two combustion detection channels but why is it so small? Was it intentional or is this an error?
i14.wfm is the other file where we have ion and combustion detection and again it's very small :(
Did you record the knock signal at all?

Thank you for the Dec 16 batch, please make another one with waves combining trigger signal with ion sense signal and combustion detection, also trigger signal with ion sense and knock sense channel.
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Re: Ion Sense

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Re: Ion Sense

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AC coupling on ion sense signal, longer timeframes and better x-window

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Re: Ion Sense

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ion_signal_match.jpg
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Image source: Johan Nilsson. AC Ion Current Interface
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