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Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:45 pm
by nighthunter
I am using the UltraSigma package.

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:24 pm
by puff
could you post a video for those who don't have that software?

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:57 pm
by nighthunter
puff wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:24 pm
could you post a video for those who don't have that software?
Yes, but i had problems exporting from the scope. So i have to re-record everything. First video is here :-) Look at all those angry pixies.
In the video i think i found out why the sense wires from COPs are so carefully shielded... Is all the magic in the COPs? That would explain why some Japanese engine dont have this module??


CHI1/Yellow - E1 control for COP1 pin9
CHI3/Purple - I1 feedback from COP1 to ION module pin 16

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:18 pm
by kb1gtt
Perhaps the digital signal is put into a low pass filter, creating an analog signal at the ECU, while a digital signal is what is passed to the ECU.

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:11 pm
by nighthunter
kb1gtt wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:18 pm
Perhaps the digital signal is put into a low pass filter, creating an analog signal at the ECU, while a digital signal is what is passed to the ECU.
Exact, that explains the lowpass on the ionsense ecu (carbon film resitor + c) on the pictures of open older sense module

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:17 am
by nighthunter
Today i found this article wich describes another version of ion sensing module.

http://www.frankencis.com/Forum/aft/28

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:45 pm
by AndreyB
nighthunter wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:57 pm
CHI1/Yellow - E1 control for COP1 pin9
CHI3/Purple - I1 feedback from COP1 to ION module pin 16
So the coil itself is producing what seems like a digital signal?! You keep us hanging, we need more channels - ION module knock output is the one I am most interested in. Please record a video with more channels, this is very valuable data for us!

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:05 pm
by nighthunter
Yes, it comes from coil itself. I will record all the data on weekend as i am now far from my workshop. There will be a load of videos.

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:19 pm
by andreika
nighthunter wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:05 pm
Yes, it comes from coil itself. I will record all the data on weekend as i am now far from my workshop. There will be a load of videos.
Can you disconnect the ion sensing module and record the signals from and to the coils?

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:33 pm
by nighthunter
andreika wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:19 pm
nighthunter wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:05 pm
Yes, it comes from coil itself. I will record all the data on weekend as i am now far from my workshop. There will be a load of videos.
Can you disconnect the ion sensing module and record the signals from and to the coils?
Yes, ive planning to record this experiment too.

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:49 am
by AndreyB
kb1gtt wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:28 am
Those solid extensions would likely be better than the flexible wire extensions. However right now I would wager a guess that your bigger issue is the long-ish ground path for the spark. If you could some how add a GND strap from your harness to the engine block, that would likely help allot.
I have great news to report! With just two solid Ferrari extenders (yes, I totally enjoy saying "Ferrari". Do you have Ferrari parts? I do!) the car has started on two cylinders and when I rev it all cylinders fire. Time to order a few more of these Ferrari (!) extenders :)

Similar cheaper option in Europe: E015D 5416220 https://shop.citroenclassics.co.uk/spark-plug-extension-l53mm-114-p.asp "Extension which screws onto the top of the spark plug. 53mm long for all D models 1966. Also fits early CX models and H vans. Use the insulating tubes below with these."

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:15 am
by nighthunter
russian wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:49 am
kb1gtt wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:28 am
Those solid extensions would likely be better than the flexible wire extensions. However right now I would wager a guess that your bigger issue is the long-ish ground path for the spark. If you could some how add a GND strap from your harness to the engine block, that would likely help allot.
I have great news to report! With just two solid Ferrari extenders (yes, I totally enjoy saying "Ferrari". Do you have Ferrari parts? I do!) the car has started on two cylinders and when I rev it all cylinders fire. Time to order a few more of these Ferrari (!) extenders :)

Similar cheaper option in Europe: E015D 5416220 https://shop.citroenclassics.co.uk/spark-plug-extension-l53mm-114-p.asp "Extension which screws onto the top of the spark plug. 53mm long for all D models 1966. Also fits early CX models and H vans. Use the insulating tubes below with these."
The wire extenders use resistive spark wire!! This will confuse the sensing circuitry in the COPs. Thats great when it works with solid extenders. Most of them are only straight wire, not resistive in comparison to the wire ones.

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:17 pm
by nighthunter
Hi friends, mission acomplished. Waveforms newly recorded and stored, videos recorded. Stay tuned, as i have a slower upload. I must upload commented videos. Here are raw wfms for people having an rigol scope. Just use Storage -> type Waveform, > Load.
https://ufile.io/9s7nj

Here table of description for the waveform data

Update: files also available at https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi_logs/tree/master/logs/2003_opel_vectra_ion/waveforms--kopie_2018_12_16

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:32 pm
by nighthunter
Here is a short raw footage, of accel/decel. COP trigger signal #1 and knock output are CH1, CH2, ion module outputs M1 (combustion signal #) ,M2 are on CH3,CH4, (from up to down)


Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:02 pm
by nighthunter
For those who wants to view the WFMs. This is a pretty good working software. http://www.soasystem.com/download/visadso/
Heres a screen how the cranking syncing goes
ICOP1 input 1, cop input 2, M1 output, M2 output

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:18 pm
by nighthunter
COP input yellow, vs COP output green

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:30 pm
by nighthunter
E1, E3, M1, M2 (COP inputs vs ion sense M outputs) about 900rpms

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:33 pm
by nighthunter
Same but 1500rpms

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:34 pm
by nighthunter
2000rpms

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:55 pm
by andreika
From the SAAB manual for Trionic 8 (2004 model):
schem_inside_cop.PNG
schem_inside_cop.PNG (68.6 KiB) Viewed 28339 times
So as I can guess, Trionic 5 and 7 used an analog ion sensing module for CDI ignition, but newer Trionic 8 is an ordinary coil ignition system (primary/secondary winding on the schematics above)?..

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:31 am
by AndreyB
On the left SAAB H6T60271

On the right Mazda H6T61171 - these are a bit longer and narrower, seem to fit my Miata engine. If we get Saab to work I would try to switch to these.

Also I've measured Saab 9-3 spark plug resistance: AP 5503 R=6Kohm

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:20 am
by AndreyB
So, first million dollar question: why do we sometimes see one pulse per cylinder while sometimes we see two pulses per cylinder?

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:16 am
by nighthunter
I think ive discovered it yesterday. When decelerating there is only one impulse. This lets me thinking about, one small pulse is spark occurence and second impulse combustion detected. Watch also the width while revving up/down.

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:20 am
by nighthunter
nighthunter wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:32 pm
Here is a short raw footage, of accel/decel. COP inputs for 1st and knock ion output are COP - CH1,Knock - CH2, ion module outputs M1 (combustion signal #) ,M2 are on CH3,CH4, (from up to down)


Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:24 am
by nighthunter
There is missing only one thing. This week ill record COP outputs vs. M1 and M2.

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:19 am
by andreika
nighthunter wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:17 pm
Here are raw wfms for people having an rigol scope. Just use Storage -> type Waveform, > Load.
https://ufile.io/9s7nj
Could you please give a short text description for every file name in the archive (including the channel legends)?
For instance, what's in c1d4.wfm, i14.wfm and ie234.wfm ? What's the difference between e1e4m1m2runtg1.wfm and e1e4m1m2runtg3.wfm, etc.?
Why is Channel3 sometimes 50V/div and Channel4 is 10V/div? This is somewhat confusing imho...

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:34 am
by nighthunter
andreika wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:19 am
nighthunter wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:17 pm
Here are raw wfms for people having an rigol scope. Just use Storage -> type Waveform, > Load.
https://ufile.io/9s7nj
Could you please give a short text description for every file name in the archive (including the channel legends)?
For instance, what's in c1d4.wfm, i14.wfm and ie234.wfm ? What's the difference between e1e4m1m2runtg1.wfm and e1e4m1m2runtg3.wfm, etc.?
Why is Channel3 sometimes 50V/div and Channel4 is 10V/div? This is somewhat confusing imho...
Im running now out of free time. You must wait a little. I am preparing videos and also description for the files. Ill just uploaded raw material, so anyone could have a preview, whats recorded. Generally the files are named like this:
CH1CH2CH3CH4operatingconditionTRIGGERARMINGCHANNEL or CH1CH2CH3CH4tgTRIGGERARMCHANNELoperatingcondition.
I know the names are a little weird, but turning names on the Rigol scopes rortary encoder operated GUI, placed on engine with probes around is a little hard.
The 50V/div probe had attenuation set to 1 accidentally by the manipulation on some shots.

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:27 am
by AndreyB
nighthunter wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:02 pm
For those who wants to view the WFMs. This is a pretty good working software. http://www.soasystem.com/download/visadso/
I am able to view WFM files using VisaDSO - I understand how to move forward/backwards in the recording.
Update: double-clicking on TIME label in the bottom center of the image allows to change scale. Thank you @

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:27 am
by AndreyB
Pull-ups reverse engineering on my Ion Mold test mule

Ignition ON, car is not running
CDM connector disconnected from CDM module
Intake air sensor 4 pin connector (bottom-right corner of ECU schematics on https://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Vehicle:Saab_9-3_2005#ECU) disconnected

Voltage measurments:
Knock signal and combustion signals on CDM connector read +5v. Looks like there are pull-ups inside ECU on all three signal lines?
pins B (brn/wht) and C (org/wht) on intake air sensor connector read +5v

now ignition OFF
CDM connector still disconnected from CDM module
Intake air sensor 4 pin connector still disconnected

continuity measurment:
intake air sensor connector pin A (blk) shows continuity to ground

looks like intake air sensor connector pin C (org/wht) is +5v power source

resistance measurments:
between knock signal pin on CDM connector and intake air sensor connector pin A (org/wht) - 0.8Kohm
between combustion detection pin on CDM connector and intake air sensor connector pin C (org/wht) - 5.0Kohm

Re: Ion Sense

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:43 am
by kb1gtt
On the module, you could measure the ohms of those 3 signals. Then if you measure the 5V when connected, you could calculate the internal ohms of the 5V pull up's.