no lift shift (NLS)

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kb1gtt
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no lift shift (NLS)

Post by kb1gtt »

Brought over from here https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1367&start=22

In that thread we have this description of what this fear request is all about.
The tl;dr is that when the clutch pedal goes in, the ECU cuts fuel/spark so you don't have to lift off the accelerator. Then, when you're off the clutch again it brings them back after a short delay, and optionally by sweeping in the timing so as to not shock the driveline too hard. The point is that airflow is maintained through the engine during the shift, so that your turbo stays spooled a little better, you don't have to wait on acceleration enrichment, etc.
So what should this feature do? If we have a clear description, we can potentially develop this feature. If it's developed do we have anyone who is capable of testing that it functions properly?
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Lyonz
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Re: no lift shift (NLS)

Post by Lyonz »

kb1gtt wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 12:41 am
Brought over from here https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1367&start=22

In that thread we have this description of what this fear request is all about.
The tl;dr is that when the clutch pedal goes in, the ECU cuts fuel/spark so you don't have to lift off the accelerator. Then, when you're off the clutch again it brings them back after a short delay, and optionally by sweeping in the timing so as to not shock the driveline too hard. The point is that airflow is maintained through the engine during the shift, so that your turbo stays spooled a little better, you don't have to wait on acceleration enrichment, etc.
So what should this feature do? If we have a clear description, we can potentially develop this feature. If it's developed do we have anyone who is capable of testing that it functions properly?
I was just about to create a post. It's clear and super well explained in the old post.
So a function that can be very useful on track or dragrace.
On a turbo engine, well tuned it eliminates the effects of lag.
Speed change with the throttle fully, and ease for synchro gearbox, only happiness.
To the question "If it's developed do we have anyone who is capable of testing that it functions properly?".
Me already. I made the choice of rusEfi. I bought 3 kit to assemble.
Today I finished assembling one kit for now.
I also finish finish the engine, do the camshafts timing and I finish the integration of rusEfi.
In 1 month I have to try it on a car for dragrace.
Target power for the moment 450hp + and 330 at 350kpa.
So if there are things to try, I'm here
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Re: no lift shift (NLS)

Post by andreika »

kb1gtt wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 12:41 am
The tl;dr is that when the clutch pedal goes in, the ECU cuts fuel/spark so you don't have to lift off the accelerator.
Perhaps, the throttle position is also important in this case?
"when the clutch pedal goes in...AND while the throttle is still opened (TPS>big_threshold)... the ECU cuts fuel/spark" ?
And what about RPM?
"when the clutch pedal goes in ...AND RPM is within certain range (RPM_low<RPM<RPM_high)... ...AND while the throttle is still opened (TPS>big_threshold)... the ECU cuts fuel/spark" ?
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Re: no lift shift (NLS)

Post by kb1gtt »

I get more concerned about the "cuts fuel and spark" part of it. I think the raw logic of when this is triggered can currently technically be done with the FlexIO stuff. Once we know the exact details of how the logic should be triggered, it could be made easier to use with some future stream lining of the code. What I see as the harder increment is how the rev's should be limited.

I can see how a hard fuel cut would suffice in preventing over-reving the engine. However I see issues using a hard fuel cut. I can also see how a soft rev limit via delaying the spark could over rev the turbo, as excess fuel explodes in the exhaust. I would think you want to limit both fuel and spark at the same time to keep the turbo spooled, but no over spooled. As well I would think you want to know the cranks rate of change. AKA if your rate of change is say 1kRPM/1 rotation of the crank, then be more aggressive about the soft limit. However if you only change say 0.001kRPM / 1 rotation, then don't be as aggressive about soft rev limiter.

Is hard and soft rev limiting the correct solution for preventing the over rev situation during shifting? If so what is the algorithm that should be used for the spark and fuel under the soft limiter?
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Re: no lift shift (NLS)

Post by kb1gtt »

rusEFI has a fuel cut rev limiter. Would a fuel only cut mostly suffice for NLS? From the logic stand point, I think @ comments match the likely desired options.

Option 1 Minimal --> If clutch then change max rev threshold
Option 2 better --> If clutch and TPS > threshold then change max rev threshold
Option 3 even better --> If clutch, TPS > threshold and RPM's > threshold, then change max rev threshold

I might add that the clutch switch should be de-bounced, AKA when the clutch signal is initially noticed, wait something like 5mS to 10mS, then check again. If the clutch is still activated, then you have a real clutch event. At this point, change the clutch bit which signals the controlling software.

I might also add that the clutch signal should trigger a timed event, such that when the clutch bit changes to the activate state, it should only allow changing the rev limiter for up to like 5 seconds. Then if you either time out, or if the clutch is de-activated, the rev limiter is changed back to the normal state. By triggering a timer on the change in state instead of just using the switch state, it prevent a broken switch from buggering your day at the track.

The 3rd option can easily be turned into the 1st option if you set your threshold is set for anything greater than 0% TPS and your RPM limit to anything above 0RPM. So if someone does not desire those features, they can disable them. However I agree it is likely that those thresholds would be desired. If the logic for NLS is going to be developed, it would likely be beneficial to develop with all three options.

About hard vs soft rev limiter, that's probably worth it's own thread. Once the soft rev limit exists, the threshold could be adjusted via this NLS logic. For now that's a separate problem, and significantly difficult to implement. It would be much easier to implement this NLS logic.
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Re: no lift shift (NLS)

Post by junk3r »

I believe that the TPS > threshold would be very important to avoid getting the fuel cut during rev-match downshifts.

I have NLS on my Evo, and in that application the fuel cut works well. I would be able to provide some data showing it in action on that platform if it helps give insight?
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Re: no lift shift (NLS)

Post by Abricos »

junk3r wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 5:52 pm
I believe that the TPS > threshold would be very important to avoid getting the fuel cut during rev-match downshifts.

I have NLS on my Evo, and in that application the fuel cut works well. I would be able to provide some data showing it in action on that platform if it helps give insight?
it helps
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Re: no lift shift (NLS)

Post by kb1gtt »

Yes data please. Can you also catch spark advance? It may cut fuel and change advance.
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Re: no lift shift (NLS)

Post by junk3r »

Alright, so i grabbed some logs. This is actually the first time i''ve looked at a log of the NLS. The RPM does not seem to drop when i clutch in? it goes up and hits the fuel cut. Either way, here are some logs of the fuel cut in some 2,3,4 gear pulls.

Also if you don't feel like plotting, here is a datazap link:
https://datazap.me/u/ford4door/no-lift-shift?log=0&data=3-4-8-10-12&solo=4-11

Not sure if you guys use datazap, but it is a pretty neat site for sharing data/logs.
Attachments
NLS_log_2.csv
(122.74 KiB) Downloaded 775 times
NLS_log_1.csv
(157.28 KiB) Downloaded 782 times
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Re: no lift shift (NLS)

Post by kb1gtt »

datazap.me looks interesting. It's the first I've seen it.

About the RPM, what's up with the ringing? It looks like it varies before the shift and after the shift. I do not see this ringing in the pressure, so I doubt the engine is really changing RPM. I suspect this ringing is part of their noise filtering algorithm, and not part of the real world. If I believe the RPM you started the shift at about 239.72 and finished at 240.2. I doubt it took you 0.48 seconds to shift, so I'm fairly sure you have some kind of RPM filtering algorithm involved here. When looking at your fuel cut, which I assume is fairly close to the time you pressed the clutch, I see a gear shift starting at 239.6 and ending at 239.8. A 0.2 second gear shift is much more believable.

To me it looks like timing advance is just based on your normal engine parameters, probably just a table lookup.

The algorithm looks simple here. If clutch is pressed, then 0% Injector Pulse Width (IPW). I think this system does not do any special clutch de-bouncing, as you see some blips of IPW when the clutch is pressed. Those blips are likely the contacts in the clutch switch bouncing due to mechanical vibration.
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Re: no lift shift (NLS)

Post by Lyonz »

Hi,
I do not know if it helps.
But I found a picture on another forum.
It's just an extra track I think.
http://s42.photobucket.com/user/TheSilverBuick/media/Skylark%204/Flatshift%20-test2_zpsvmuvimbm.png.html
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Re: no lift shift (NLS)

Post by kb1gtt »

Photobucket can be a pain. Here's an archived copy.
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Flatshift -test2_zpsvmuvimbm.png
Flatshift -test2_zpsvmuvimbm.png (125.24 KiB) Viewed 17872 times
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Re: no lift shift (NLS)

Post by AndreyB »

Google still points at this topic while https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2670 is much cooler
Very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions

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