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Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:13 pm
by JRD McLAREN
So, we can choice between some control models.

Speed density / MAP
Alpha-N / TPS-RPM
MAP
MAF

These models are used for both Ignition and Injection control.
But, in some cases, we need different mode for injection and different for Ignition.

Let, me explain ...

I have 2.0 litre engine, on ITB, and also have vacuum tank for MAP sensor.
Using "Speed density" model for fueling "is too bad idea" for ITB engines, but is "good idea" for ignition.

Using Alpha-N model is not so good for fuel economy - we need correction table
and it is not ideal for ignition on low engine load.

Is possible to have different control models for Ignition and different for Injection ..??

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:20 pm
by AndreyB
You use double negatives do you or do you not, don't you?

Please state which combination do you believe would be ideal for you. At the moment I believe if you use MAP for fuel you are forced to use same MAP for spark.

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:25 pm
by AndreyB
Actually maybe we have exactly what you are looking for?

Just attempted to document it better https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/commit/17733bc00f21517b551409bafda26e1b44b49ad4

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:27 pm
by JRD McLAREN
OK ..

On most ITB engines is Alpha-N mode good for fueling.
It has no correction.

All tables have X and Y axes.

Is possible to have "X - rpm" and "Y - tps" axes for fueling
and "X - rpm" and "Y map" axes for ignition ..??
(..and AFR table X-rpm Y-map .. maybe)

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:29 pm
by JRD McLAREN
russian wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:25 pm
Actually maybe we have exactly what you are looking for?

Just attempted to document it better https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/commit/17733bc00f21517b551409bafda26e1b44b49ad4
...this is it .. maybe ...

It is in on latest bundle ..?? or it is "on plan" .. ?

EDITED:
no ...

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:32 pm
by AndreyB
It's on the current bundle but sounds like it's the opposite of what you want - it has MAP for fuel and TPS for spark.

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:34 pm
by JRD McLAREN
...yes, it is opposite..

In speed-density mode, you need to retard ignition on "high TPS move"..
cause detonation may occur ...

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:37 pm
by AndreyB
Not supported at the moment :(

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:47 pm
by JRD McLAREN
OK..
it was a question ..

On engines with ITB you have "two state" MAP value ..
Vacuum .. aprox 56-60kPa (on my engine)
and..
No vacuum .. aprox 85-92kPa
..nothing between..

on same MAP and RPM value, in cruise drive.. (1800-2000)
"wallking around" 4 fields in VE map (54-56)
but have different AFR (14 - 12) dependent on TPS position (13-8)

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:13 am
by andreika
russian wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:37 pm
Not supported at the moment :(
How about that?
Image
Image

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:12 am
by JRD McLAREN
Mmmm...
This looks good ..
This is what I want ..

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:38 pm
by JRD McLAREN
Something is wrong ..

First try on dyno, with rusefi ..
and NO FUN ..

It cut off, when I have TPS 40% and above..

In log file, is MAX 40% TPS value reported,
but in a real life is much than 40% ....

We can try some "horrible numbers" in VE map,
but it doing nothing ..

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:48 pm
by AndreyB
Image


Do we know what kind of an engine this is? Have we seen a picture? What board is this? I think a LOT of info could be missing or did I miss something big time?

Could it be that a tune file could help us? Please confirm that you had a chance to look at http://rusefi.com/s/questions

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:52 pm
by JRD McLAREN
Wait ...

My post is "just for record" .. at this moment...

I will try to check TPS sensor ..
Make video from my laptop screen ...
..etc ...

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:56 pm
by JRD McLAREN
russian wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:48 pm
Do we know what kind of an engine this is? Have we seen a picture? What board is this? I think a LOT of info could be missing or did I miss something big time?
here: https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1519#p32046

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:13 pm
by AndreyB
TPS (white) goes UP but RPM goes DOWN? And mixture (green) goes lean?

I believe these logs are from SD card? Tuner Studio logs probably have most columns, firmware logs probably have least columns. Ideally should be the same if someone points at the gaps which columns are missing which of the three logs files :)

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:16 pm
by JRD McLAREN
Look at this picture, from megalog viewer ..

RPM is 2988
TPS is 42%
MAP is 98kPa
VE is 43

..as you can see "my test fuel map" ..
VE is 240 .. in these fields ....

Log file is from SD card ..

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:26 pm
by Abricos
how much volt is your TPS sensor 3.3 ,5 ,12 volt ?
Do you make calibration TPS. In tuner studio ?
New Bitmap Image (12).bmp
New Bitmap Image (12).bmp (3 MiB) Viewed 1704 times

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:51 pm
by JRD McLAREN
...TPS is calibrated ... :roll:

I make some tests on "standing vehicle" ...

TPS work from 0 to 100% with no problem - see rus2.msl

VE map in TunerStudio look like picture above,
right TPS and RPM bins.
"mark" (or pointer) walking thru map ...

BUT in rusEFI console, looks different - see ve_rusefi_console.JPG
"Unknown degree" and "Unknown RPM" ..
and "green square" walking on the first line only, and not according real engine RPM

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:52 pm
by JRD McLAREN
... I need to create "some engine load" table ..??

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:26 pm
by AndreyB
rusEfi table editor is EXTREMELY limited, I would not try using it.

What is the problem you are trying to solve?

Engine not revving above certain is mostly about ignition timing not fuel map, is not it?

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:42 pm
by JRD McLAREN
It has problem with fueling...

It seems, the controller not calculate fuel correctly.
(wrong table readings or readings from different table ..??)

I have selected "speed density" algorithm, with TPS based VE map.

In TunerStudio everything look fine, but not in reality.
In rusEFI console look everything different.

I need to answer, why rusefi not calculate injection time from VE table, as I see on Tuner studio ..??
.. in this "combined mode" - Speed Density + TPS based VE table ..

(on many fields are "too high" VE value, it must be injection time around 20ms)
(but I cant see it on any gauge, AFR, logs etc .. )
(engine cut-off due to too lean mixture)

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:17 pm
by AndreyB
JRD McLAREN wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:42 pm
In TunerStudio everything look fine, but not in reality.
In rusEFI console look everything different.
What does "look fine" mean
What "look everything different." mean

I am sorry I am unable to read you mind. Please give exact gauge names, exact actual values and exact expected values. Please give exact tune and logs, with exact screenshots pointing at exact moment of the problem.

Have you considered using more normal modes just to compare?

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:22 pm
by JRD McLAREN
.see X and Y axes on pictures above.

"Standard" Speed Density mode, with MAP based VE table works fine.

It not works on TPS based VE table.
here is numbers https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1542&p=32934#p32918

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:25 pm
by AndreyB
JRD McLAREN wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:22 pm
.see X and Y axes on pictures above.
picture above shows BARO CORRECTION on rusEfi console

I do not understand how bar correction is related to your VE. "Picture above" is an example of a not specific data point, it's vague - there are too many pictures above :(

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:31 pm
by JRD McLAREN
russian wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:25 pm
picture above shows BARO CORRECTION on rusEfi console
NO ...
it is Volumetric Efficiency

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:35 pm
by JRD McLAREN
Fields values are the same .. in rusefi console and tunerstudio

but X and Y axes are different ...

then "bad calculate may occur" ...

EDITED:
OK .. just the Y is diff.

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:33 pm
by JRD McLAREN
Fixed... :mrgreen:

I don't now why or how ..
but it's working ...

I try downgrade to snapshot_20190222_0741_stm32f407_rusefi,
edit Y axis on VE Table on rusEFI console, to be the same as in TunerStudio
.. and it started to work ...

Then I try to upgrade (back) to snapshot_20190410_1924_stm32f407_rusefi,
create "brand new project" in TS, on my second laptop
.. and it still working fine . ..

I'm so sorry to waste your time ...

(it's some mismatch configuration during update process before, maybe ..)

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 6:31 pm
by mk e
JRD McLAREN wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:47 pm

On engines with ITB you have "two state" MAP value ..
Vacuum .. aprox 56-60kPa (on my engine)
and..
No vacuum .. aprox 85-92kPa
..nothing between..
You can fix this easily with a multiMAP, a simple diode circuit that puts a separate MAP on each cylinder and sends the strongest signal to the ECU. On my engine with huge ITBs, cams and ports I see 35kpa at idle and a smooth transision to 100kpa at full throttle, and all points in between. I think getting good data to the ECU is a WAY!!!! better solution than trying to do fuel and spark control with different methods

Re: Engine control scenarios / modes

Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 6:37 pm
by puff
hey! do we consider the rover v8 like this
Image
with a plenum chamber on top as an ITB?