One more time about 60/2 VW trigger

[AndreyB]

There is a theory that 60/2 VW is nothing but a mis-wired 60/2 trigger.

Let's revision this subject properly.

[AndreyB]

@abricosvw uses 60/2 VW on high green dragon vehicle see https://rusefi.com/online/view.php?msq=542&dialog=triggerConfiguration

There were attempts to propose a trigger switch procedure but Slack is not working well for this lengthy effort, we need a slower tool here.

step 1: stop engine (need confirmation that procedure should be executed on a non running engine)
step 2: change trigger from 60/2 VW to 60/2 (need confirmation that we are changing trigger)

etc
etc

step X: start engine with new settings, validate with timing light
step X+1: adjust globalTriggerOffset accordingly, we expect 2-4 degrees in some direction

[mck1117]

Let's start with collecting data: can we grab a trigger log in Tunerstudio at idle and 4000 rpm?

[AndreyB]

Simon - Orchardperformance
I don't think it is really a flipped version, see notes on the old github ticket

[Simon@FutureProof]

There are a lot of notes here about the different variants of 60-2 trigger wheels, it's seems they are not all equivalent and the signal from a VR and Hall are not equivalent for all of the wheel.
https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/issues/988

I think step one in any decision process here should be to gather some data, I suggest as many trigger logs as we can with the different trigger wheels and sensors I can provide it for the BMW wheel with both VR and Hall.

Does anyone have the inverted version of the wheel with the gap being a solid block?
Does anyone have the "high" gap version where there is a bridge across the gap at 1/2 tooth height?

[mck1117]

Does anyone have the inverted version of the wheel with the gap being a solid block?

yes, my volvo is like that. They use the edge of the flywheel, with 58 notches cut in it.

[mck1117]

I compared the images of 60-2 and 60-2 VW from our wiki: https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/All-Supported-Triggers

This is just overlaying then differencing in photoshop:

image.png (75.78 KiB) Viewed 6097 times

The differences between the 60-2 WV option and the 60-2 option are:

• Falling edge during the missing tooth in a different spot, however this does not matter since both of these triggers should be operated in "use only rising" mode.
• Offset by 12 degrees (exactly)

[JRD McLAREN]

...(where is my picture about differences between HALL an VR compared to RAW signal) ....

[mck1117]

There should be no difference (that we care about) between hall and VR. We should be only looking at rising edges, which will be in the same place between hall and VR. All we care about is that there are rising edges at even intervals, then one gap between rising edges that's 3x the length of every other gap.

[JRD McLAREN]

..in real life...
is difference a half tooth on offset between HALL and VR...

on 60-2 is 3deg., on 30-1 is 6deg. etc.

[mck1117]

..in real life...
is difference a half tooth on offset between HALL and VR...

on 60-2 is 3deg., on 30-1 is 6deg. etc.

I'm less worried about that. Checking offset with a timing light on a running engine is a required step for any new setup, except for extremely known configurations (GM LS 24x for example has a required matched sensor and wheel, and is impossible to use any other sensor).

[mk e]

..in real life...
is difference a half tooth on offset between HALL and VR...

on 60-2 is 3deg., on 30-1 is 6deg. etc.

yes, if they work at all. The tooth design really needs to match the sensor. or you end up with a buggered signal that is impossible to decode reliably...a lesson I learned the hard way.

Here is a VR sensor on a wheel designed for Hall.

2014-09-16 003.JPG (93.74 KiB) Viewed 6060 times

It has neither a clean rise nor falling edge to trigger on. A Hall on a VR wheel is kind of worse in that you get a good signal so it will start and run but there can be a lot of jitter (the time between trigger events is not consistent as constant rpm) if its a V or similar type shape or missed triggers if its too narrow. OEM trigger on an OEM wheel and you know it will work, custom or mismatched stuff can cause a lot of problems.

But to Matt's point, as long as the ECU gets a usable signal and you have the ecu setting correct to read it, the rest is accounted for when you set the timing and only matters if you're trying to do a pre-tuned pnp or something like that I'd think.

[JRD McLAREN]

I'm less worried about that. Checking offset with a timing light on a running engine is a required step for any new setup, except for extremely known configurations (GM LS 24x for example has a required matched sensor and wheel, and is impossible to use any other sensor).

I can use both types of sensors ... VR and HALL on my engine (60-2 wheel)
Crank has first rising edge (after big gap) 60deg. BTDC..
and my offset setup on VEMS was 60 on HALL or 54 on VR to get zero ... TDC...
(54deg, cause " big gap" ) ...

and this is the same on rusEFI, IMF, EcuMaster .. etc. ...


We talking about it somewhere in this tread https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1519
and I'm told something like:

I'm think, the right name for your trigger wheel templates are:

60/2 Hall sensor (60/2)
60/2 VR sensor (60/2 VW)

[JRD McLAREN]

There are a lot of notes here about the different variants of 60-2 trigger wheels, it's seems they are not all equivalent and the signal from a VR and Hall are not equivalent for all of the wheel.

..YES, this is the true ...

[mck1117]

Let's try to stay on topic, this thread is specifically about the fact that we have two slightly different different configurations in the firmware for 60-2 wheels.