[help needed] electronic throttle body control ETB

It's all about the code!
User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9768
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: electronic throttle body control ETB

Post by russian » Sat May 04, 2019 2:02 pm

960 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 8:05 pm
Are you getting same or different results with the 7209?
Pretty different results on 7209 so far. With 7209 I've used two wire control, and duty cycles and behavior overall is pretty different. On my TODO list is to run 7209 with three-wire control same as I use on VNH2SP30.

At the moment focusing on VNH2SP30 since it works better, at the moment the focus is learning how to tune PID and establishing a better base line. Once VNH2SP30 is great, will try to repeat same on 7209.

I guess I've suggested a few times to build a bench setup a few times already? :)
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

960
contributor
contributor
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:22 am
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes

Re: electronic throttle body control ETB

Post by 960 » Sat May 04, 2019 6:06 pm

If they require different values there is something wrong.

Have you measured if the output seems right?

I am measuring a little now, and with 300 HZ I have 233 out

With 500 set, I have 388 out

With 200 set, I had around 158 out

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9768
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: electronic throttle body control ETB

Post by russian » Sat May 04, 2019 6:46 pm

960 wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 6:06 pm
I am measuring a little now, and with 300 HZ I have 233 out
Since we have a webcam in your garage, we all know exactly what you measured, how you did it and using what hardware! We can even see which board with what stm32 chip! Because all chips are the same and no details were left behind.

I am sarcastically trying to say that you leave a LOT to be guessed. If you feel like chatting let's do that at https://rusefi.slack.com/messages/CF6F16278/details/

Please get a VNH2SP30 board from eBay so that you can compare. Frequency could be screwed for too many reasons. I have no osc and no brains to use it anyway.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

960
contributor
contributor
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:22 am
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes

Re: electronic throttle body control ETB

Post by 960 » Sat May 04, 2019 7:21 pm

russian wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 6:46 pm
960 wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 6:06 pm
I am measuring a little now, and with 300 HZ I have 233 out
Since we have a webcam in your garage, we all know exactly what you measured, how you did it and using what hardware! We can even see which board with what stm32 chip! Because all chips are the same and no details were left behind.

I am sarcastically trying to say that you leave a LOT to be guessed. If you feel like chatting let's do that at https://rusefi.slack.com/messages/CF6F16278/details/

Please get a VNH2SP30 board from eBay so that you can compare. Frequency could be screwed for too many reasons. I have no osc and no brains to use it anyway.
You know exactly what hardware and MCU I use.

Look at your own posts, do you tell what hardware you are using in each of them?

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9768
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: electronic throttle body control ETB

Post by russian » Sat May 04, 2019 7:26 pm

fair point :) i always use F407 at 168 mhz thats the most proven platform. F407@168 is definitely rusEfi default. I also know that you alternate between F4 and F7. i am very worried about your usage of F7 since it gives me only problems while currently not providing any additional value.

please confirm that you are using f407@168mhz for ETB research.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

960
contributor
contributor
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:22 am
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes

Re: electronic throttle body control ETB

Post by 960 » Sat May 04, 2019 7:37 pm

russian wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 7:26 pm
fair point :) i always use F407 at 168 mhz thats the most proven platform. F407@168 is definitely rusEfi default. I also know that you alternate between F4 and F7. i am very worried about your usage of F7 since it gives me only problems while currently not providing any additional value.

please confirm that you are using f407@168mhz for ETB research.
I told you in a earlier post that I have a F7 at this board, and dont want to swap more times.

My new boards are ordered, so maybe then. I also asked you in the earlier post how the software PWM are calculated, and if it's affected by MCU speed.

I have measured the PWM from the TLE7209 today, and the results dont match.
It's measred across pins.

If it was based on the MCU speed( My MCU are 216Mhz), like scaling, I would expect it to be too high, not to low.


EDIT:

After calculating the results against the MCU speeds, it matches the wrong way.

388Hz out with 500Hz set in TS = 28%

216Mhz VS 168Mhz = 28 %

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9768
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: electronic throttle body control ETB

Post by russian » Sat May 04, 2019 8:42 pm

Here we start at P=6, I=D=offset=0 and increment P by 4. Running the same test and finding lowest magic number.

So far P=22, I=D=offset=0 is the best result, using the same curve as above.

"Coolant" is ETB temperature.
Attachments
p_22_is_best_p_with_temperature.png
p_22_is_best_p_with_temperature.png (252.15 KiB) Viewed 1631 times
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

mk e
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:32 pm

Re: electronic throttle body control ETB

Post by mk e » Tue May 28, 2019 4:55 pm

The standard answer to optimize a P only system is increase P until the system oscillates then dived by 2......but P only doesn't seem like the best choice for a throttle and certainly did not produce the best results on my setup.

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9768
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: electronic throttle body control ETB

Post by russian » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:31 am

OMG Mercedes used to have mechanical cable from pedal to engine bay and pedal sensor in engine bay and ETB!

Looks like this was used on some US models like maybe 2003 Mercedes Benz CLK 320 Gas Accelerator Pedal Position Sensor A012-542-3317.

Honda had something similar 37971-RBB-003
Attachments
TPS.jpg
TPS.jpg (52.41 KiB) Viewed 1501 times
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9768
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: electronic throttle body control ETB

Post by russian » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:37 pm

New feature: (Pedal, RPM) > desired TPS position table

https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/issues/835

Untested unfortunately, I might try this in about a month from now.
Attachments
59555053-c5461f80-8f7a-11e9-9aa2-39d5f7393b50.png
59555053-c5461f80-8f7a-11e9-9aa2-39d5f7393b50.png (155.1 KiB) Viewed 1473 times
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

mk e
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:32 pm

Re: electronic throttle body control ETB

Post by mk e » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:45 pm

russian wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:37 pm
New feature: (Pedal, RPM) > desired TPS position table
I like it. I just did a 1D table in mine, pedal to desired TPS so it works like a simple cam but I really like the rpm addition thought. I thought about doing something 2D with gear selection but haven't gotten to it...and not sure its any better than your rpm choice.

Good find on the remote pedal sensors too. I think I posted earlier in the thread I have a ...96? 911 sensor that is I think 1 year only and similar, it was the only one I knew about but it seems several companies had the same issue as technology changed faster than body designs.

puff
contributor
contributor
Posts: 2738
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:28 am
Location: Moskau

Re: electronic throttle body control ETB

Post by puff » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:31 pm

i guess, the next feature request would be cruise control (at least for manual transmission, no fancy automatic gearbox control).

mk e
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:32 pm

Re: electronic throttle body control ETB

Post by mk e » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:20 pm

puff wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:31 pm
i guess, the next feature request would be cruise control (at least for manual transmission, no fancy automatic gearbox control).
Safety wise that would need a bit of thought.....letting the computer not just follow the driver commands but open the throttle as it sees fit will want a bit of caution baked in I'd think.

puff
contributor
contributor
Posts: 2738
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:28 am
Location: Moskau

Re: electronic throttle body control ETB

Post by puff » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:27 pm

I don't see much difference between controlling the throttle position based on the pedal sensor readings and controlling the throttle position based on vehicle speed sensor readings. Yes, that would require additional sensors on a clutch and brake pedals plus some controls to set up and display desired speed. May be some additional safety algorithm preventing rapid changes in speed. But that shouldn't be difficult?

mk e
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:32 pm

Re: electronic throttle body control ETB

Post by mk e » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:54 pm

You're right, its not much different....just more layers and more opportunity for things to go wrong. i'm told the OEM do all this stuff redundantly with completely separate variables and memory locations then make sure the results match, then move the throttle or maybe more accurately allow the throttle to continue to operate. On my BWM the speedometer is working fine and the computer is calculating fuel mileage, miles remaining in the tank , average speed, etc. so the computer knows how fast and fast the car is/has gone but cruise, traction control, ABS, 4x4 are all off-line because the computer isn't happy with some of the wheel speed sensor data. For sure my VWs would close the throttle if the throttle and brake were both proessed for more than about 5 seconds....

OEMs do lots of stuff like that to get what they consider acceptable risk....after market...well.....the wiring the manufacture specified for my ECU used an ECU output to control the main ECU power to allow things inside the ecu to shut down in an orderly way and makes it possible to do things like long term trims being written to flash and prevent any chance of a coil firing before the ecu was fully booted I was told.....then one day I realized my ecu had partly locked up and was ignoring the key-off signal and was not shutting anything down, divide by zero error, it hates that it turns out and reacted by ignoring the ignition off signal. WTF!!!! I rewired to add a safety relay that lets the ecu shut itself down but the coils and injectors are frikin off when the key is off and I know the the driver has the power to shut down a misbehaving system. That solution would not meet OEM specs but at least I feel safe enough now.

Just something to keep in mind I think.

Abricos
contributor
contributor
Posts: 727
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:32 am

Re: electronic throttle body control ETB

Post by Abricos » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:22 am

so where we stopped gentlemens ?
which chip or PCB need to use ?
TLE7209 or VNH2SP30 ?

960
contributor
contributor
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:22 am
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes

Re: electronic throttle body control ETB

Post by 960 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:33 am

Abricos wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:22 am
so where we stopped gentlemens ?
which chip or PCB need to use ?
TLE7209 or VNH2SP30 ?
It actually works quite good now.

I use TLE7209, but I think there are support for others like TLE9201SG.

Abricos
contributor
contributor
Posts: 727
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:32 am

Re: electronic throttle body control ETB

Post by Abricos » Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:44 am

960 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:33 am
Abricos wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:22 am
so where we stopped gentlemens ?
which chip or PCB need to use ?
TLE7209 or VNH2SP30 ?
It actually works quite good now.

I use TLE7209, but I think there are support for others like TLE9201SG.
let's assume i have a chip TLE7209
what do i need to do next ???

960
contributor
contributor
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:22 am
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes

Re: electronic throttle body control ETB

Post by 960 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:09 am

You need to connect Dir1 and dir2 to MCU.

Select pins in TS, and use the settings in menu

Set Dis pin Low with resistor, En pin high with resistor.


You can find my schematic for it in microrusefi folder

OrchardPerformance
contributor
contributor
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:55 pm
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes

Re: electronic throttle body control ETB

Post by OrchardPerformance » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:15 am

I can also confirm the VNH2SP30 works quite well as a low cost, easily available option. Had no trouble running throttles from 40-70mm on the bench with it.

Preferred is the OEM style chips but the VNH2SP30 will do the job.

Crazy Striker
kit assembler
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:05 pm
Location: Brest, Britanny, France
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes

Re: electronic throttle body control ETB

Post by Crazy Striker » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:07 pm

Hi guys, sorry to revive this with my issues but I need your advices ;)

I will need a second throttle body for my Miata with the supercharger to deal with idle issues and everything.
My plan was to let the stock one in place and use a E46 Bosch ETB (14£ off eBay) to choke the charger and avoid the unbearable noise.

Does it seem a viable option to you, can I retain the stock tps ans use it as a sender for my tps commande, as well as designing a custom curve for the relationship between TPS and ETB position to smoothen boost activation and eventually limit power for my emissions tester.

VNH2SP30 seem a good and cheap idea for interfacing with my frankenso as well.

Thanks guys

Gwendal

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9768
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: electronic throttle body control ETB

Post by russian » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:14 pm

Please post same exact thing in your vehicle topic and let's continue there? This is on the edge of what this topic here is for in my opinion.

I think I know what you are looking for and I think it would work. A picture or a drawing would help just to reduce the chance of misunderstanding :)
Crazy Striker wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:07 pm
VNH2SP30 seem a good and cheap idea for interfacing with my frankenso as well.
The down side of VNH2SP30 is that it requires three 5v control lines, not 3v from stm32 pins - but you probably have three channels of high-side to use with VNH2SP30 so you are good.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9768
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: electronic throttle body control ETB

Post by russian » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:24 am

Now with MRE board

https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9768
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: electronic throttle body control ETB

Post by russian » Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:05 pm

This chip from eBay has undocumented self-ventilation and self dis-soldering features! Maybe I might have wired things wrong :)
Attachments
sometimes_things_happen.jpg
sometimes_things_happen.jpg (315.69 KiB) Viewed 817 times
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

User avatar
russian
Site Admin
Posts: 9768
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Soldering skill: yes
Coding skill?: yes
Contact:

Re: electronic throttle body control ETB

Post by russian » Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:39 am

We now have dual ETB/DBW support :)

https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

Post Reply