Transmission Control logic
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Transmission Control logic
What do we know about transmission control modules? How complex are these - is this comparable complexity as the ECU, or way easier?
I guess I am looking for a 101 on TCM
I guess I am looking for a 101 on TCM
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Re: Transmission Conrol logic
https://www.powertraincontrolsolutions.com/download/Released/Public/Manuals/TCU_Master_Manual_rev2.1.pdf
Download manual... This is as simple as it gets. Most newer transmissions are more complex.
Download manual... This is as simple as it gets. Most newer transmissions are more complex.
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Last edited by Nobody on Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Transmission Conrol logic
Looks like this manual is exactly what I was looking for!Nobody wrote:Most newer transmissions are more complex.
So if we are talking a 99 Honda, would that already be a "newer more complex" or not yet?
Anyway, realistically I should focus on just the ECU thus get an older vehicle for now.
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Re: Transmission Conrol?
I don't know anything about Honda.
The above controller, pretty much is low end of spectrum, not saying it's a bad unit, it's actually a very good and used it before. But referring to transmission types, most people use them with 4L80 (good to about 1000 whp) ~20 year old design.
As a general rule 5+ gears is allot more complex. 8 gear/speed units have variable displacement pumps, and tons of other features to minimize parasitic losses, but those have TCU/TCM integrated into them and CAN bus is used.
The above controller, pretty much is low end of spectrum, not saying it's a bad unit, it's actually a very good and used it before. But referring to transmission types, most people use them with 4L80 (good to about 1000 whp) ~20 year old design.
As a general rule 5+ gears is allot more complex. 8 gear/speed units have variable displacement pumps, and tons of other features to minimize parasitic losses, but those have TCU/TCM integrated into them and CAN bus is used.
Last edited by Nobody on Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Transmission Conrol logic
4-speed automatic in a 6th gen US Accord.Nobody wrote:As a general rule 5+ gears is allot more complex
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Re: Transmission Conrol?
I did say I know nothing about Honda...
But from Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Honda_transmissions
You get;
Honda's automatic transmissions are unusual in that they do not use planetary gears like nearly all other makers. Instead, the Hondamatic and its successors use traditional, individual gears on parallel axes like a manual transmission, with each gear ratio engaged by a separate hydraulic clutch pack. This design is also noteworthy because it preserves engine braking by eliminating a sprag between first and second gears
Honda was forced to invent their new system due to the vast array of patents on automatic transmission technology held by BorgWarner and others.
Honda initially chose to integrate the transmission and engine block for its first application (in the N360) as in the Mini. The Hondamatic incorporated a lockup function, which Honda called a third ratio, and had manual gear selection. The company's early transmissions also used a patented torque converter which used stator force rather than hydraulic controls for shifting.
So any work you do on Honda will be limited to Honda... I've never seen a car/light truck automatic without planetary gears.
But from Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Honda_transmissions
You get;
Honda's automatic transmissions are unusual in that they do not use planetary gears like nearly all other makers. Instead, the Hondamatic and its successors use traditional, individual gears on parallel axes like a manual transmission, with each gear ratio engaged by a separate hydraulic clutch pack. This design is also noteworthy because it preserves engine braking by eliminating a sprag between first and second gears
Honda was forced to invent their new system due to the vast array of patents on automatic transmission technology held by BorgWarner and others.
Honda initially chose to integrate the transmission and engine block for its first application (in the N360) as in the Mini. The Hondamatic incorporated a lockup function, which Honda called a third ratio, and had manual gear selection. The company's early transmissions also used a patented torque converter which used stator force rather than hydraulic controls for shifting.
So any work you do on Honda will be limited to Honda... I've never seen a car/light truck automatic without planetary gears.
Last edited by Nobody on Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Transmission Conrol?
Once again thank you for a great link!Nobody wrote:Honda's automatic transmissions are unusual in that they do not use planetary gears like nearly all other makers. Instead, the Hondamatic and its successors use traditional, individual gears on parallel axes like a manual transmission
Another link: http://www.latentsolutions.com/SSv4.6.pdf
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Re: Transmission Conrol logic
I've used a '96 EEC-V (CDAN4 strategy) computer with a definition supplied by someone in the UK to control a Ford 4R70W transmission using the factory computer. The application was in a '71 Ford Mustang with a 550 hp V8 in front of the transmission, 3000 RPM stall converter with 3-clutch disc lockup. The best source of information I have found was the CDAN2 strategy document from Ford itself which highlights many of the tables, functions, and scalars used to calibrate the transmission tune to the application. I believe I've arrived at a very drivable calibration despite the relatively high power output.
Essentially, the transmission is controlled via multiple shift solenoids, a range/position sensor for indicating what position the shift lever is in, an EPC (electronic pressure control) solenoid, a TCC (torque converter clutch) solenoid, and a few sensors such as trans oil temperature and additional inputs from the ECM.
Essentially, the transmission is controlled via multiple shift solenoids, a range/position sensor for indicating what position the shift lever is in, an EPC (electronic pressure control) solenoid, a TCC (torque converter clutch) solenoid, and a few sensors such as trans oil temperature and additional inputs from the ECM.
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Re: Transmission Conrol logic
Is a old post but i been working with TCU and i made my own controller to close the gap for new installation, there is a demand to use new electronic transmissions for racing but
because there is no one to offer experience on this. I know that they are some programmable TCU's but not to many people work with them or are over priced.
I can share what i learn trough the years and my own design or i have some TCU controller available for those interested.
I think that will be extremely easy to implement it on rusefi only concern me is provably we need some VR channel inputs as we need to know the output shaft speed.
Regards
Rob
because there is no one to offer experience on this. I know that they are some programmable TCU's but not to many people work with them or are over priced.
I can share what i learn trough the years and my own design or i have some TCU controller available for those interested.
I think that will be extremely easy to implement it on rusefi only concern me is provably we need some VR channel inputs as we need to know the output shaft speed.
Regards
Rob
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Re: Transmission Conrol logic
I am pretty interested! What transmissions does your TCU support? I am open for suggestions what (smaller/cheaper) vehicle would be a good test mule?
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Re: Transmission Conrol logic
I would be interested in learning. I have a truck that needs some TCU. We have some holes in our knowledge.
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Re: Transmission Conrol logic
Right now it support any transmission that have no more than 5 solenoids because thats the outputs that i have on the board.
At the first it was intended to work for the AW4 that comes in the Cherokee Jeep but also work with the A340 that comes with the 2JZ then i made it work on the
RE5R05A that comes on the infiniti Q45 this last transmission can hold a lot of torque so is a good candidate for racing.
then ad for the 4L60.
Control logic is very simple but i'm still working developing the code(and i'm not good at that).
Basically you need a few signal inputs, RPM, TPS, output shaft speed, brake pedal SW. most of the new trans have a the pressure control valve that works according to the TPS. and most of the shift gears work on 2 or 3 output convinations like a decoder IC. output shaft speed is using for engaging or desengaging of the convertor lock and the brake pedal as a backup. the shift point is a mix of tps% plus output shaft speed and RPM.
What i do on my controller is limited now, because of the code but because i work only with racing applications what i have is more than enough. i use a paddle shifter to up and down the gears manually, and also a input that is connected to shift light that have selectable RPM or directly connected to the ECU RPM output, it has a display that tell you wish gear are you running to. Also use some tinted lexan and put them behind the dash so you only see the gear number.
at the first i write everything on arduino, cos is what i have available when i was doing the first prototype then i decide to stay with it because it do easily what its mean to do very cheap and more pins than need it.
it can be implemented very easy on your code and make the rusefi control trans too.
At the first it was intended to work for the AW4 that comes in the Cherokee Jeep but also work with the A340 that comes with the 2JZ then i made it work on the
RE5R05A that comes on the infiniti Q45 this last transmission can hold a lot of torque so is a good candidate for racing.
then ad for the 4L60.
Control logic is very simple but i'm still working developing the code(and i'm not good at that).
Basically you need a few signal inputs, RPM, TPS, output shaft speed, brake pedal SW. most of the new trans have a the pressure control valve that works according to the TPS. and most of the shift gears work on 2 or 3 output convinations like a decoder IC. output shaft speed is using for engaging or desengaging of the convertor lock and the brake pedal as a backup. the shift point is a mix of tps% plus output shaft speed and RPM.
What i do on my controller is limited now, because of the code but because i work only with racing applications what i have is more than enough. i use a paddle shifter to up and down the gears manually, and also a input that is connected to shift light that have selectable RPM or directly connected to the ECU RPM output, it has a display that tell you wish gear are you running to. Also use some tinted lexan and put them behind the dash so you only see the gear number.
at the first i write everything on arduino, cos is what i have available when i was doing the first prototype then i decide to stay with it because it do easily what its mean to do very cheap and more pins than need it.
it can be implemented very easy on your code and make the rusefi control trans too.
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Re: Transmission Conrol logic
i forgot i have more than 10 cars running on this simple controller.
Re: Transmission Conrol logic
I see 4 larger chips, you mentioned it can control 5 solenoids. Are these larger chips the solenoid driver chips?
Would you consider a SMT version? Also would you consider a version that has pin locations that match the pin locations on Frakenso's prototype area? The proto area offers 5V, 3.3V and GND pins.
Can I ask what driver chip you are using. I see it's a ST chip, and I would guess it is protected MOSFET. I wonder what voltage it is clamping to.
Would you consider a SMT version? Also would you consider a version that has pin locations that match the pin locations on Frakenso's prototype area? The proto area offers 5V, 3.3V and GND pins.
Can I ask what driver chip you are using. I see it's a ST chip, and I would guess it is protected MOSFET. I wonder what voltage it is clamping to.
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Re: Transmission Conrol logic
Yes it can control 5 solenoids, and yes there are the drivers, the circuit is so simple that i want it to be able to assemble them pretty fast and because the display is 1 inch i didn't care about SMT but yes i consider it.
for the pin location I can do that but i was thinking that your hi/lo drivers can handle the current, i use this approach because i was afraid of something not holding up and put those big power transistors. those are tip125 with a n2222 driver , cos what im driving is 12volts but is a over kill. Dont make jokes about my design i need a solution and i work with what i had at that moment. I have more data now and i know that is a overkill.
for the pin location I can do that but i was thinking that your hi/lo drivers can handle the current, i use this approach because i was afraid of something not holding up and put those big power transistors. those are tip125 with a n2222 driver , cos what im driving is 12volts but is a over kill. Dont make jokes about my design i need a solution and i work with what i had at that moment. I have more data now and i know that is a overkill.
Re: Transmission Conrol logic
Over designing when reasonable or practical is a good approach. The tip125 is a solid choice, I would say you made good decisions when you made that choice. It looks like a great project and you have done some cool stuff. I look forward to learning more. I would like to learn if this could be used for my 96 Dodge Ram truck. Right now my truck can run on rusEFI but I have not done the transmission control yet.
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Re: Transmission Conrol logic
I assume your truck have a 46re transmission, basically this transmission is not so complicate even that you think the contrary. this trans dosn't have solenoids for gear shifting, but you need to control the governor pressure on a PID loop and need to be controlled on a follow table; speed vs load, I know the values of PSI pressure related to each speed, also you have a OD valve that is just a on off valve and a TCL that is also a on off valve. I know that with your knowledge convened with my we resolve your problem in no time. I know that my board will work with this one with some mods.
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Re: Transmission Conrol logic
Things to control a trans:
Inputs;
TPS
Pressure sensor (not all cases and can be more than one) this sensors most of the time output a .6-3 volts where .6 is zero pressure and 3 is close to 60 psi
Temperature sensor(not always need it only as a safety feature)
output chaft speed ( most of the cases VR sensors)
selector gear positioning (again not always need it)
Outputs:
TCC valve, toque convertor lock operation, this is just a ON/OFF operation
Pressure control valve, it can be PWM operated but most of the cases is PID from the pressure sensor and the speed sensor. some of them need a current regulator as your friend transmission.
O.D. overdirve valve, most of the 4 gear trans have this but not always.
2 or 3 or 4 solenoids for shifting, they operate as a control logic form like a decoder.
regards, Rob
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Re: Transmission Conrol logic
I was thinking today and this is what i'm going to do: after i turn on my 2JZ, i will buy one of those new frankenso kits and i will convert the one that i have now in a TCU controller, and do some test on a Q45 trans that i have behind a VG30DEt here at home, it will be a frankenso only for test the components that already have for controlling a TCU. then with the findings, we add the TCU code to the existing code and modify the board with whatever we need. what you think? i will need support on coding.
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Re: Transmission Conrol logic
sounds like a plan!
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Re: Transmission Conrol logic
I hope im not to late, and I hope this idea for TCU is still hot...russian wrote:What do we know about transmission control modules? How complex are these - is this comparable complexity as the ECU, or way easier?
I guess I am looking for a 101 on TCM
I think it would be great if you can create a TCU for the Mercedes 722.6 5 speed Automatic transmission. It is an electronically controlled gearbox.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_5G-Tronic_transmission
There are two internal speed sensors. Both are planetary speed sensors. So instead of an input and output speed sensor which would be an easy gear calculation or an input and add a driveshaft speed sensor for the same you have to add a driveshaft speed sensor and then switch between the speed sensors from gear to gear. This is just so the tcu knows what gear it is currently in. Otherwise if you command a shift and it does not complete then it will not know any better and when you command the next shift it will not be correct any more.
Now there are people out there and some are customers of mine that do not car at all about shift quality or auto shifting or anything of the sort. But that is a rare bread.
I have thousands of hours in tuning and testing and tuning and testing to get this where it is now.
Re: Transmission Conrol logic
Do you have details about the algorithm that would need to happen to control this gear box?
Do you have a schematic that shows the low level electrical parts of this gear box? Is it hall or VR, or other for the internal speed sensors? How many amps do the solenoid consume, are they bang bang, or are they analog control, etc.
Do you have a physical setup which could be experimented on, and if so do you have the skill set to do the experimentation? AKA do you have developer(s) who can see the effort through to completion. A key issue we have is that the primary developers here don't have the hardware so it's hard to develop remotely through persons with different skill sets.
Do you have a schematic that shows the low level electrical parts of this gear box? Is it hall or VR, or other for the internal speed sensors? How many amps do the solenoid consume, are they bang bang, or are they analog control, etc.
Do you have a physical setup which could be experimented on, and if so do you have the skill set to do the experimentation? AKA do you have developer(s) who can see the effort through to completion. A key issue we have is that the primary developers here don't have the hardware so it's hard to develop remotely through persons with different skill sets.
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Re: Transmission Conrol logic
I am assuming that you are responding to my last suggested post about the 722.6 gearbox. Because I didn't see the "kb1gtt wrote:Do you have details about the algorithm that would need to happen to control this gear box?
Do you have a schematic that shows the low level electrical parts of this gear box? Is it hall or VR, or other for the internal speed sensors? How many amps do the solenoid consume, are they bang bang, or are they analog control, etc.
Do you have a physical setup which could be experimented on, and if so do you have the skill set to do the experimentation? AKA do you have developer(s) who can see the effort through to completion. A key issue we have is that the primary developers here don't have the hardware so it's hard to develop remotely through persons with different skill sets.
" notification.
If not, please disregard this message. But if you did, here goes.
What I have so far for schematics of the "conductor plate" which carries and explain operations of the internal electronics is as follows:
http://www.techtips.ie/febi/mercedes-automatic-transmission-conductor-plate.pdf
This schematic shows the resistance of each solenoid but not the current, however that should not be a problem for me to acquire.
I have a 1999 Mercedes CLK430 with the same 722.6 transmission, plus I am purchasing another one for a build swap project currently in progress. So yes; I do have physical setups which could be experimented on.
I do not yet have developers skills with code writing if that is what you are referring to. But as for the build and tuning the software with the hardware, I AM THE GO TO GUY. lol
This is me: http://www.benzworld.org/forums/r-c107-sl-slc-class/1854410-my-85-380sl-megasquirt-project-progress.html
I did Electronics Engineering back when that was important, It also covered Mechanical operations and digital fundamentals.
I over engineer everything.
So I completely understand your concern about the different skill sets (language barrier)
I followed the RusEfi since the Hackaday debut and cried because I had just bought one and paid an arm and a leg.
So I came here.
There are currently two TCU's out there build from an arduino buy ridiculously over prices. I refused to make that mistake a second time.
Please let me know if I can be of any further assistance
Best Regards
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Re: Transmission Conrol logic
Looks like the guy behind http://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1060 has a lot of relevant TC experience but if only he was a bit less busy
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Re: Transmission Conrol logic
At about 4 ohms, if that's powered by 12V it would be 3A. It appears this would be switched on and off once every say 20 seconds at worst case situation. In this case I would need to see if Frankenso can drive this. It was designed for 1A continuous with continuous switching. The over voltage protection is energy you are not dealing with so it might work. It appears those are hall sensors or some kind of digital sensor as they have + and - voltages. I'm mostly concerned about that lock up solenoid. I think that the Frankenso drivers might be a bit weak. It might require an external board or a circuit on the proto area. Do you know what kind of signal the lock up solenoid requires? I'm expecting that is analog or PWM controlled, but I do not know the frequency, or conversion curve.
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Re: Transmission Conrol logic
Yes the N2 & N3 are hall sensors. #6 solenoid is a pwm that controles the lock up converter.. i can hook up a meter to my car and go for a drive and measure from the harness.kb1gtt wrote:At about 4 ohms, if that's powered by 12V it would be 3A. It appears this would be switched on and off once every say 20 seconds at worst case situation. In this case I would need to see if Frankenso can drive this. It was designed for 1A continuous with continuous switching. The over voltage protection is energy you are not dealing with so it might work. It appears those are hall sensors or some kind of digital sensor as they have + and - voltages. I'm mostly concerned about that lock up solenoid. I think that the Frankenso drivers might be a bit weak. It might require an external board or a circuit on the proto area. Do you know what kind of signal the lock up solenoid requires? I'm expecting that is analog or PWM controlled, but I do not know the frequency, or conversion curve.
Re: Transmission Conrol logic
Do you happen to have a current clamp? Perhaps something similar to the CA-60, it measures DC and AC current? I'm concerned that at 2 ohms with 12V drive consuming up to 6A.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/351856783486?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/351856783486?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true
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Re: Transmission Conrol logic
Great idea!.I can pick one up today.
What about a professional grade diagnostic scanner? I can get my hands on one, so let me know if you'd need me to look into the operations of it that way.
What about a professional grade diagnostic scanner? I can get my hands on one, so let me know if you'd need me to look into the operations of it that way.
Re: Transmission Conrol logic
Ok here is a pic of my TCU harness. I now will find the various wires that corresponds to the solenoids.
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Re: Transmission Conrol logic
Getting a capture of it at idle, then for a quick spin around the block will help show what is required from a physical / electrical standpoint. Keep in mind to zero the CA-60 before the trip, as well try to keep it away from any magnetic fields, this includes coils and ignition. Those magnetic fields can mangle the signal a bit.
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