(Bio)Diesel Powered

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Noxz
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz »

Spent some time identifying components and ports and whatnot.. using standalone engine without the stuff that was used to run it certainly has it's challenges..

The high pressure pump is a Denso HP3, ID'd by pictures
The rail pressure sensor is a Delphi.. no datasheet found but it's a good start - ID'd by the the similar part number on it, 95PP3-1, the 'PP' is apparently used a bit for them.

I tried using two 1k pullup resistors on the signal outputs to see if anything more would come during idle/no pressure - but no dice

fuel line extractor/removal kit arrived and I was able to disconnect the feed/return pigtail'd lines.. the pump to the return pipe used a quick disconnect and I will likely upgrade that all around. I want to wait on ordering them until the fuel filter arrives because I am fairly sure from the pictures that the filter simply has taped inlet/outlets and I will need an appropriate connector for it as well..
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kb1gtt
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by kb1gtt »

I expect that with out pressure, you will always have 0V output. I think it would be good to avoid the pull up and pull down resistors for now. First get some pressure on it, at least 1kPSI, then measure with a volt meter. Once you have pressure and you do not have voltage, then you can try pull up and pull down resistors. Also I would suggest you try something like 10k ohm to begin with. Most ADC's are around 10k ohm, and they commonly have around a 10k to 50k pull up / pull down internal to the MCU processor. Trying a 1k to 500 ohms is likely a bad thing.
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz »

Sad to say, but I didn't have much on hand.. I haven't been doing much on-hands electronics as much as my other hobbies the past few years.. I really only had two other projects built out specifically for them without much spares.. the 1K's actually came off a trashed electronic board.. I am looking at ordering some of that wire, soon, and should stick some bundles of common resistors into the mix.

looks like 22 and 20 AWG will be the main sizes, but still need 16AWG for the injectors (or just double up on 20 for the time being until I get a length) and 14 AWG for the glowplugs (not really needed at this time)..

Slowly building up the tools and hardware I need.. reminds me, I still need the frankenso.. not sure why exactly I am delaying on that - I think I want to map out all of the sensors, switches, and solenoids - and read through the schematics/whatnot to discover what it is capable of out of the box - to know what additional stuff I may need/want (for example, I wont need the EGR system to work at all at to get the engine running - but I would like to interface into it without too much trouble..)
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz »

fuel filter arrived..
it's actually a fuel/water separator - which is good for biodiesel, especially homemade. Since it is "only" 10 micron I may look into a separate, primary, 2 micron fuel filter. I need some adapters and fuel line and such.. Also looking up when a fuel heater (to move through filters better) would be needed. Electronic inline ones exist and also heat exchanges with coolant - being who I am I would likely go with the heat exchange so there is no additional drag added to the alternator/generator/battery.. could do both for initial heat flow and constant running. The glow plugs only help combustion, obviously.. This filter is good enough to start working with the flowbench - but need the fuel lines etc..

Delphi of America got back to me about my request for datasheet of the rail pressure sensor and said to contact their UK support channel.. awaiting a response from them.
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kb1gtt
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by kb1gtt »

Self made often needs anti fungal stuff. Often you can get through the filter, only to have it grow after it's made it through.

Sounds like incremental progress. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help.
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz »

The plus side of deciding to use the Smart as the shell - it has a tiny tank. This will basically enforce more frequent fillups and less "growing" (I'll likely call it "spoiling" or "oxidizing" if I am in a chemistry mood) - I just should not store much of it for too long.. So long as it is driven at least weekly I dont see an issue with spoiling inside.. temperature dependant, and there is a recirculation of the overpressure fuel which made it through the filter already - but may have been heated during the path.

I think it's basically just setting it all up to get it working on the bench, no actual questions at this moment, just some ideas of how to maybe do a bundle ECU + Injector Driver in a single box, but I dont really see that as too necessary..

I really should look it up - but dont know off the top of my hands how many and what kind of sensors/solenoids are supported w/ Frankenso out of the box.. like I said, I should look this up myself.. lagging on a few things.

Oh, and it's Shark Week..
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kb1gtt
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by kb1gtt »

You're in sharknato land aren't you?
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz »

afaik they havent played any sharknados.. I've only seen clips here and there but it's as good as it sounds...........

I'm working on specing out the connectors for the fuel system.. I'd like to use a different size of quick connect for the inlet vs outlet of the filter, to ensure to never mix up the lines.. took a while to find a supplier of 3/8" and 5/16" quick disconnect (with ORB-06 threading, the 5/16 was a little hard to find, I also need a plug as there is a second outlet at the top) - and now figuring out the quick disconnect female->hose barb ends.. from what I have seen, 90 degs would be the best, near all around.. 90deg was used on only on the pump supply, but a straight on the rail/pump return but likely turns anyways.. so now trying to match up how many of what.

likely looking at getting 25ft of 5/16" Viton tubing for all around (return line could be as small as 1/4") - which will be more than enough to do a flow bench and also for a proper install. Viton is resistant to B100, and dont really want to go with anything not verified to work well - though a little pricey

Update: ordered it all..
1x ORB-06 to SAE 5/16 QD (in blue)
1x ORB-06 to SAE 3/8 QD (in blue)
1x ORB-06 plug (in blue)
1x 5/16 QD to 5/16 hose barb, 90 deg
3x 3/8 QD to 5/16 hose barb, 90 deg
25 ft 5/16 Viton tubing, in white

should all be here next week, so some down time.. to watch sharks?

oh, + electronic torque wrench..
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz »

Delphi-UK said they cant give any datasheets for commercial applications, only aftermarket - and this was obv under contract w/ GM..
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Abricos »

datasheets for.??? ( model year part number )
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz »

95PP3-1 common rail pressure sensor
from a 2018 chevy cruze 1.6L diesel (LH7 engine code)
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz »

not sure why I said "Looks like Mouser doesn't have a lot of 18 AWG (=0.75), and would say 16 AWG is also needed (=1.5)" ...

0.50mm =~ 24 AWG
0.75mm =~ 20 AWG
1.50mm =~ 14 AWG
2.50mm =~ 10 AWG

I was trying to use some charts but they were not consistent.. anywho, glad I didnt order any wire yet - and also got some calipers to verify what the service manual stated vs an actual measure, and it was in mm..

Update:
Picked up 100' of white PTFE coated 14AWG for cheap on ebay.. injectors should be set (save for the new terminals + weather seals).. I'll decide if I like the wire/brand upon arrival and will stick with it (Alpha wire, MIL-W-16878 Type E)
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by kb1gtt »

It's not so good for pulling through conduit, the jacket is quit thin. However it's good stuff when you aren't to concerned with abrasion. Keep in mind if you use it for ignition, a small scrap or nick in the insulation will drop that 600V rating quite rapidly. Your injectors should be significantly below the voltage rating.
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Noxz
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz »

I would be pretty careful with this stuff, even if I have some extra on hand..

wall thickness of ~0.3mm, for an overall dimension of a little more than 2.4mm..
I measured about 2.5mm for the orig injector overall and 1.5mm for the conductor itself
so, to go from 0.5mm wall thickness to 0.3mm (and increasing conductor size to 1.8mm diameter) is something to watch out for.. but I should have everything at length at that point (no more bench testing) and neatly tied together and will of course make sure proper grommets are used at conduits/similar..

The smaller gauge wire is rated to 300v.

All rated to either 200 C (mostly) or 260 C (depending on the item/deal that pops up).

The wiring will be something to be proud of in the end. The main goal is higher chemical/weather resistance. Being neat/tidy is a close second, and being pretty is on the bottom of the list.

Correction:
existing injector wiring is about 2.25mm diameter, give or take a little as measuring something that isnt perfectly solid is sometimes tricky.. but that's more along the lines of what I thought.. would give ~0.375mm wall thickness, and we're a bit closer than the originally suspected 0.5mm..
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz »

Everything delivered.

I actually had to order a Die (and another plug) because although the measured -06 ORB of 18TPI was accurate, the diameter was wrong (and I chewed up the threads on the plug). It was actually 1/4 NPT/FIP ( which is odd because NPT does not have O-Ring dimensions as part of the standard but this terminal did, maybe there is another word for this NPT+O-Ring Boss.. did not appear to narrow more inside and thus not "NPT"?). Given the TPI was the same, the cutting was easy as it wasn't really new threads, just smaller ones.. used sockets/wrenches to hold everything since my (metric, up to M12) tap/die set's die holder can only hold 1" and this die was 1 1/4" from side to side..

I have an email out to the makers of the quick-disconnect adapters (that I just rethreaded) asking if the O-Ring they supply is Buna-N (NOT biodiesel compatible) or Viton. If Viton I can torque down (22 lb-f), else I will have to order (or run around town maybe to an auto store which doesnt seem ideal) and it'll arrive on Sunday.

oh, another thing, I was under the impression the digital torque wrench I got could do angles/degrees - but cant (I read it wrong/was unaware they had models that could and could not), the one that can is double the price - and I will likely be sending this one back for that better one since it was the main goal to be able to do such things consistently without relying on looking at a dial.

The Viton tubing for the fuel line has a working pressure of just under 15psi, which is what is sold at biodiesel supply houses so is assumed to be within range of the low pressure side (I could see pressure building on the supply side of the fuel filter - but at the same time there should be suction forces especially if I am not using a lift pump (within the tank) because of the feed pump within the highpressure pump and the short distance a Smart's engine is from the tank - but we'll get to that road later.

I may need some bolts (I am sure I have some that will work, but may have to steal them from something else) to hold the fuel filter housing to a piece of 2x4 on the flow bench.

The wire is super nice. No writing/burn (due to PTFE jacket) - just pure white - deciding if labeling numbers of circuit on ea wire or the color bands will be the way to go, but I am convinced to use the same series of wire for the other gauges. Very aesthetic. The strippers are going to have a slight problem with the ptfe jacket (did on this 14AWG), but was able to take off at least half, and the other side can be easily trimmed off after. I re-crimped an already used terminal+weather seal onto the wire from an injector connector.

I'm still awaiting a jerry can of biodiesel from my buddy.. and that email of what the o-rings are made of.

edit: called up the biodiesel station in town and chatted with the guy about compatibility, although I found research papers stating this and that, he hasn't seen much degredation of various parts and stated that you need a really crappy fuel line for any real effect.. but I still dont like the idea of dissolved rubber flowing into my injectors - better safe than sorry..

edit2: the o-rings are Viton! so I can torque them down and forget about it.. should have the pump flowing by end of weekend at the latest :)

edit3: obtained a yellow 5gal diesel jerry can, just gotta fill'r'up (funny.. the smart fortwo has only a 8.7gal tank)
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz »

picked up 4 gal of biodiesel..

I could only get flow through the return if I was prime pumping.. so I had to same day ship (on sunday no less) a small lift/priming pump, but now with it installed I get flow when I crank the pump so it may just be the check valve as I doubt it built up that much back pressure.. anyways, it may mean that I only need to flip it on for a moment at the start and then the HP pump will take care of the rest..

Will be looking at the rail pressure sensor soon enough..
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kb1gtt
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by kb1gtt »

I understand that mineral oil is a common diesel substitute for flow bench applications. No organic stuff to cause problems, same-ish viscosity, and doesn't foam up. If you haven't already, it might be worth while to consider mineral oil for the flow bench.
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Noxz
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz »

Viscosity is not an issue at room temps, and bio-diesel is actual more lubricant than dino-diesel.

The flow bench isn't sploching around (as in a car) neither, so I haven't witnessed any foaming. the BD I got is 99.9% - I forget what additives are in it but possibly a surfactant and something to lower the cloud/pour/freeze point.

It does have a slight french fry smell - but mostly just sweet as most esters are.. I don't need a respirator to work with it. I do have some paper towels surrounding the opening where the supply+return hoses go in to minimize the smell (but I haven't fired the injector yet).

I also dont want to spend the time/resources to flush the system once something else is in it.


No real headway on the sensor just yet.. when given +5v one of the signal lines raises to about that, but no noticeable pwm nor change when pumped.. I am going to check a few things on the return line. Both solenoids/valves should be open at the pump (Suction control valve) and closed on the rail(to return) by default to maintain pressure.. (after I am done for a moment I will charge the rail solenoid to hopefully release anything built up, but unsure if that is happening at this point)
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz »

so, looks like the priming pump is able to get fuel to the pump, visible by fuel flowing through the return lines.. but not at a pressure it needs.. no fuel comes through the high pressure side when I hand crank - even when the new electric priming pump is on. but if I hand pump the fuel filter (so happy I searched for a decent one with that feature) and hand crank the HP pump then fuel will come out of the high pressure side.. so I guess I may be searching for yet another different pump.

the Viton tubing is only rated at ~15psi as it is not reinforced, and overnight a small kink sort of formed on a sharp bend on the setup.. so it may not be ideal. Looking through the service manual there is reports of up to 60psi on the supply end.. which will likely be around the target pump I will search for..

it seemed like a good idea at the time...


edit:
note, sometimes the pressure is in relation to the return line pressure, so I attempted to clamp off the return line to generated more of a difference, but the electric priming pump was still incapable of delivering the required pressure to send fuel through the high pressure side
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz »

Ordered a pump that will get up to about the rating of the tubing, and a pressure gauge kit that I do no have high hopes for due to the connectors/whatnot, but I may be able to get a reading of old, new, and hand pumping, which should give me some aim..

Of course if the pump that is coming is still unable to get the high pressure output going, I have another one lined up (45-65psi vs the ~14psi) but it wasnt next-day delivery, and the tubing should require reinforcement..

Looking for reinforced Viton tubing is actually rather difficult.. but I can just sleeve it (fiberglass/kevlar/carbon fiber) - so long as I spec one that wont expand much more than the OD of the tube (7/16", I can imagine 1/2" would still hold up well) then it should be able to withstand much more pressure.. looked up a few that are epoxy impreg'd, and come in black, natural (white/tan), blue, red, yellow.. decisions decisions..

Anyone seen vids of the "air muscles" that use flexible silicone tubing and nylon braided sleeves that purposefully allow a bulge - where then the tube contracts in length, allowing weight to be moved? There's even some how-to.. I dont want mine to bulge at all though :P


edit on re-reading..
the reason I didnt really want sleeved cables (as is done in computer mods) was they would pick up dirt easily.. just as a mental note
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz »

gauge + new pump arrived a day late..
the first pump wont even register pressure past the fuel filter (registers about 7psi pre .. did I introduce air into the line that never cleared out?).. hand pumping the filter I can easily get it to above 30psi (with no noticeable strain beyond pressure on the lines), unknown at this time what the minimum required is, didnt bother testing to that point.. The new pump does not register and has near no flow past the fuel pump, so although rated at 14psi I doubt it has enough umph to really get past the filter..

getting a >65psi pump + fiberglass based braided reinforced sleeving for the lines..

emailed Airtex, the maker of this new, and the new-new(to be delivered) pump if they had biodiesel compatible ones. They simply stated the new one I chose (to be shipped) is not recommended for diesel use - did not offer any alternatives, asking for alternatives..

CORRECTION:
New pump shows ~18psi AFTER the filter, hand cranking, and then drill cranking, I can get fuel coming through HP side... this may be good enough for the flow bench for a day or two but likely would not be sufficient for on road..time to see if this sensor will give me any readings now..

.. at first attempt, no different output from sensor..
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz »

so, rigged up the gauge to an injector feed outlet on the rail, and given the gauge only gets up to 140psi I was trying to go slow.. with the electric pump on, and using the drill to crank it, it would wobble possibly up to 60psi (once air was bled out) but bleed back down..

The rail pressure regulator is normally OPEN, not CLOSED... weird! when I apply a voltage (variable PSU was rigged up to 5v, and registered like 1.25A) to that solenoid then the pressure will hold and I can hand crank it well beyond the gauge... progress.. now time to rig it up to the 12v PSU to free up the variable for the pressure sensor (I should get a good 5v PSU for the electronics, or use a rigged computer one or similar...)

This caveat kind of shocked me since everything I read was that the rail keeps pressure when you power off the car so you have high pressure ready on next reboot.. but not if it's normally open..
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz »

w00t!

once it builds up pressure, it will basically dead stop the drill and jerk my hand holding it..

but you can see some voltage difference.. whatever it equates to, on the purple line (lowers from the ~5v)
Looks like the green line (signal 2) raises..

half.. scared?.. to hold onto the drill and turn it up.. I am also applying 12v to the rail solenoid kind of manually, and I can feel it heat up some after the fact.. I will of course use one of the "fuel pump" lines as the voltage driver on the MC33816, but good initial test..

I think I need a super high pressure manual gauge to verify anything..


.. more info, edited..
I have the drill limited, maybe half way? it's a hitachi D10VH 680watts 120v drill.. which is like 0.8hp? looking up air compression tables (best I got?) it should be able to do 2k psi.. far cry from 16-20k but may be worth noting..
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz »

Since I goofed around with the fuel lines (service manual states to replace with new, I think that may only be for the idea of contamination and not really the seating) I needed to order a set of crowfoot wrench heads.. my crescent wrench will not do..

also getting a 15k psi WIKA gauge to map some of these values...
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by kb1gtt »

I think what you saying is that your now getting some variation in voltage from the green line based on your small amount of pressure you were able to generate. That's some good news. I suspect that you may need a loading resistor to get rid of that noise. Is that signal wire basically just connected to the scope? The scope's internal resistance is about 1M ohm to GND. If that's your only loading resistor you might try putting a 10K on it. The 10K is about what you normally see from an MCU ADC.

Also keep in mind on most scopes, including that Rigol, the GND strap from channel 1 is connected internally by the scope to the GND strap on channel 2, 3, 4. Also that GND strap is connected to the 3rd GND pin on the outlet. It might be worth some time to do a continuity beep test to see what I mean. Doing that test helps get a gut feel for these semi hidden connections. I've seen people attempt to use the scope to measure a high side resistor. If they forget these connections they burn things up. So I figured I'd make mention about it. I recall this scope is new to you, so I'm assuming you're reasonably new to scopes and figured a comment wouldn't hurt anything.

Real world gauge is a good thing. You'll need it to function as a comparison. AKA we still don't know curve which tells us ?? V = ?? PSI. Once you verify that curve with the gauge, then we can do the scaling to get that into TS or similar control logic.

Sounds like some good progress.
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz »

Yes. I am getting variation of voltage from the purple and green line (they appear to be opposites, purple will lower with increase of pressure and green will increase). The scope, ch2 & 3, are connected directly to the signal lines, with a ground strap from the probe on ch2 connected to the negative/low voltage reference of the sensor - powered by an external variable psu, of which has a strap to earth ground. Both osc and PSU are on the same powerstrip/ground and there is continuity.. Probes were set at 1x. All of the grounds from the probes, as you say, are connected together and a continuity check confirms they all are with the PSU's negative/ground. Scopes in general are new to me, and I do not have much experience just yet..

Will need some resistors..

And Yup..the point of the gauge will be to map the voltage:pressure.. I have a feeling it's going to be linear from all other datasheets I have looked at but time will tell..

I was very excited to see the voltage change.. progress indeed.

I wonder about logic for the rail regulator & the Suction Control Valve on the pump itself (which I haven't really touched yet but there is a bit of info on how they work online).. maybe never have 100% duty cycle to help the heat dissapation too, but also the MC33816 has only one feedback input for both of those controls... hard to simulate engine power on the bench and the continuous flow encountered may be absent. Maybe start with some simple tests such as having the MCU detect when up to 5k psi, then lower it to 2.5k - hold for 5s, then release rail pressure, reset... or similar enough..

If all goes well, I can certainly see the injectors working this weekend, maybe not a complete system, but at least some fuel shooting out.


Edit: Adding an actual strap (alligator cable) from the available gnd thing on the scope directly to the negative/gnd of the psu smoothed out a bunch of that noise.. I also tried turning off the Air Conditioner to see if that had anything to do with it :P
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz »

Crowsfoot "wrenches"(?) arrived, was certainly able to torque the lines I touched to proper 21 ft-lbs.. can't imagine trying to build up any kind of pressure in there with how loose one of the lines I messed with was, but as I said, a crescent wrench can only do so good, especially when you have a bunch of steel lines in your way. It was adequate for removal.

New-New pump arrived (Airtex E2000) - does not have any mounting hardware, just a vibration dampener tube, but same size as the Old-New Pump (another Airtex) so I should be able to just slide it in and get more than 50+psi at the HP pump. I plan on having a pressure+temperature prob right before the HP pump (after this primer pump -> Filter). Everything will be the quick disconnects, but I almost don't see a need to make that block of sensors as such if they dont get plugged (post filter) nor the lines going bad - so I am debating in my head the best way to go about this.. the sensors will likely be a screw/stud terminal style and thus replaceable, no real need to quickly disconnect/swap out the metal block that they + fuel lines go into..

I need to wait for the reinforcement sleeving before I install it.. tomorrow. Gauge tomorrow as well. And Resistors.

I'll eventually locate mounting hardware for these Airtex pumps so I can send back this ~14psi one, and also the ~8psi one. I was wanting to send back the fuel pressure gauge (140psi) but I have a feeling it was worth the money to have on hand..
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz »

What's the phrase?

FML...


forgot to reinforce a clossed tube, blew at 65psi.. cleanup was a mess(me, windows, fridge...... why am I doing this in the kitchen?!?) - rewarded myself with some beers at the pub for said cleanup, time to try again?

.. Ooopse
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by Noxz »

Fixed..
Will hold 80 PSI blocked off before the HP pump. When attached, it seems to get to 75psi, and will bleed down slowly when not fed (HP pump and feeder pump not on). HP pump seems to work at 10psi(not well and not below). When the HP pump runs I can imagine the pressure will drop from the 75psi down some, but it's really a high throughput (in relation to the previous pumps) and will likely hit the target of 55-65psi.. but what do I know..

the clamped end during the closed test, chewed through the [first] reinforcement sleeve (but still held) - possibly due to the clamps used ("fuel lines" clips are nearly smooth throughout and do not have the threads for the screw to tighten against - at least the available stuff from the nearby auto store has one specifically for fuel line like that and I should switch.

Still awaiting the HP gauge to arrive to test the voltage curve of the rail pressure sensor.

Still.. embarrassed?.. that I goofed up and forgot the reinforcement on that closed end.. My place _really_ smells like frenchfries now..

I can't even imagine what this would have been like if I had all the specs for thing, and compatible fuel lines and appropriate pumps etc, on hand at the start.. may have been less fun :P

Edit: Ran the HP pump (with primer on and fuel pressure gauge before the HP pump - and without the rail pressure regulator solenoid ON so it all drained (possibly could get to 65psi from previous tests?) and it basically wobbled between 55-75psi.. so should be good for highway use (according to some service manual numbers)
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kb1gtt
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Re: (Bio)Diesel Powered

Post by kb1gtt »

Noxz wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:54 pm
My place _really_ smells like frenchfries now..
This is why you do such things in the kitchen.

I wonder, what you plan for your fuel tank. I can see a fry access hatch, such that you can either make fries while you drive, or perhaps your project could double as a food truck.
Welcome to the friendlier side of internet crazy :)
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