PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7 #51
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
Do you have an oscilloscope? Can you capture the raw analog signal?
I believe the TLE8888 is 5V. I would suggest you keep below 5V. Also when you touch the leads you can include a 1k or similar current limiting resistor. When you exceed the 5V rail, your rail diodes will attempt to clamp the signal by shorting the pin to the 5V rail. AKA 12V on a input pin likely means 12V shorted to 5V rail.
DG- appears to have 6.8k to GND. Do you have this installed? If you install this, then you should toggle DG+ with less than 5V and get an output signal. I guess DG- is VRIN2. I do not think it matter very much, as long as it is consistent. If you change it the output signal will invert. See what happens if you have VRIN2 to with resistor to GND.
I believe the TLE8888 is 5V. I would suggest you keep below 5V. Also when you touch the leads you can include a 1k or similar current limiting resistor. When you exceed the 5V rail, your rail diodes will attempt to clamp the signal by shorting the pin to the 5V rail. AKA 12V on a input pin likely means 12V shorted to 5V rail.
DG- appears to have 6.8k to GND. Do you have this installed? If you install this, then you should toggle DG+ with less than 5V and get an output signal. I guess DG- is VRIN2. I do not think it matter very much, as long as it is consistent. If you change it the output signal will invert. See what happens if you have VRIN2 to with resistor to GND.
Welcome to the friendlier side of internet crazy
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
I have 5K at R13 R15 R16 R19 and R20
So I did not apply 12 directly at the inputs.
It has been working fine with a jumper-wire from a MCU output directly to one of the inputs
If you look closer at the 6.8K resistor, it's also a 4.64K resistor to 12v.
To me it looks like a voltage divider, so it will actually be a pull-up DG- ??
It seems to be pulled down with ignition off, and up with ignition on.
I also had a 1nF cap at C12. Do I need any capacitor there, and what value?
So I did not apply 12 directly at the inputs.
It has been working fine with a jumper-wire from a MCU output directly to one of the inputs
If you look closer at the 6.8K resistor, it's also a 4.64K resistor to 12v.
To me it looks like a voltage divider, so it will actually be a pull-up DG- ??
It seems to be pulled down with ignition off, and up with ignition on.
I also had a 1nF cap at C12. Do I need any capacitor there, and what value?
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
Is VCC 5V or 12V. If it's 5V, then I expect that DG- is close to 2.5V. As we'll see below, it appears DG- is closer to 3V.
I drew up the attached in QUCS V0.0.19. I started with the below simulation.
https://sourceforge.net/p/daecu/code/HEAD/tree/Hardware/trunk/simulations/Inductor_measure/
For some reason my VR simulation did not play nice, so I disabled that part of the simulation, and put in the voltage source titled "Vsim" instead. See attached simulation. Sorry had to 7zip it to get it allowed in the forum. It complained *.SCH was not an allowed file extension.
I think this is a reasonably close simulation to the reference design. I see that if the Vsim is 1V it does not work, but if it's 10V then it appears to work. I see it also works with Vsim at 5V.
Any how, this might offer some more insight into how the reference was working.
I drew up the attached in QUCS V0.0.19. I started with the below simulation.
https://sourceforge.net/p/daecu/code/HEAD/tree/Hardware/trunk/simulations/Inductor_measure/
For some reason my VR simulation did not play nice, so I disabled that part of the simulation, and put in the voltage source titled "Vsim" instead. See attached simulation. Sorry had to 7zip it to get it allowed in the forum. It complained *.SCH was not an allowed file extension.
I think this is a reasonably close simulation to the reference design. I see that if the Vsim is 1V it does not work, but if it's 10V then it appears to work. I see it also works with Vsim at 5V.
Any how, this might offer some more insight into how the reference was working.
- Attachments
-
- VR_TLE8888_sim.PNG (35.31 KiB) Viewed 16830 times
-
- VR_TLE8888.7z
- (1.31 KiB) Downloaded 282 times
Welcome to the friendlier side of internet crazy
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
I never tried simulation software, but it looks impressing!
How will it work with the actual circuit?
How will it work with the actual circuit?
- AndreyB
- Site Admin
- Posts: 14356
- Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
- Location: Jersey City
- Github Username: rusefillc
- Slack: Andrey B
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
Just a reminder that I have Lada M86 with TLE8888 if tracing would help. If you continue tracing I can validate with DMM.
See https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi_documentation/blob/master/oem_docs/Lada/M86/M86%20TLE8888%20traced.png
See https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi_documentation/blob/master/oem_docs/Lada/M86/M86%20TLE8888.jpg
See https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi_documentation/blob/master/oem_docs/Lada/M86/M86%20TLE8888%20traced.png
See https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi_documentation/blob/master/oem_docs/Lada/M86/M86%20TLE8888.jpg
Very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
Always looking for C/C++/Java/PHP developers! Please help us see https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
Always looking for C/C++/Java/PHP developers! Please help us see https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
I have been trying to find out where the TLE8888 is used OEM for a long time:-)russian wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:21 pmJust a reminder that I have Lada M86 with TLE8888 if tracing would help. If you continue tracing I can validate with DMM.
See https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi_documentation/blob/master/oem_docs/Lada/M86/M86%20TLE8888%20traced.png
See https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi_documentation/blob/master/oem_docs/Lada/M86/M86%20TLE8888.jpg
Some better pictures of the trigger circuit would be wery helpful.
I think this is it?
Last edited by 960 on Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
Also, where can I get a ECU?
I see the part number just exist at some russian sites.
What brand is it?
I see the part number just exist at some russian sites.
What brand is it?
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
Done some more testing today with different trigger setups.
Still nothing at trigger counter.
Still nothing at trigger counter.
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
take note that the scope GND strap is connected to earth ground, which is likely connected to your USB ground. This can cause problems. You might want to consider using the scope in differential mode. AKA 2 scope probes, then you take CH1 - CH2 and you get the difference.
Is your VR capturing correctly now? Are you still having problems with the VR capture?
Is your VR capturing correctly now? Are you still having problems with the VR capture?
Welcome to the friendlier side of internet crazy
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
The lada circuit looks like(For what I can see) 10K in series, 2 x 40K in paralell + one capacitor.
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
This is a ScopeMeter, not connected to computer.kb1gtt wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:14 pmtake note that the scope GND strap is connected to earth ground, which is likely connected to your USB ground. This can cause problems. You might want to consider using the scope in differential mode. AKA 2 scope probes, then you take CH1 - CH2 and you get the difference.
Is your VR capturing correctly now? Are you still having problems with the VR capture?
I had a nice slope measuring like at the picture (directly from sensor), just a few Mv but still.
Later I had it after the resistors at the TLE8888 inputs, but there I had almost nothing.
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
I see from the TLE8888 datasheet that if I connect it as OEM, the TLE will recognize it as a hall sensor.
It's figures of different setups at page 205 in datasheet
It's figures of different setups at page 205 in datasheet
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
The inputs have a mild pull to 2.5V. If you connect a hall, to one lead and let the other input float, that input will float to 2.5V. Then your hall will pull from 0V to 5V. When ever your input crosses the floating 2.5V the output will change state. There's not any real figuring out, its more of how you wire it. The internals of the chip are the same for VR and hall.
Welcome to the friendlier side of internet crazy
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
Ok, I was thinking about this part, but after reading some of it I dont think anything needs to be changed?kb1gtt wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:36 pmThe inputs have a mild pull to 2.5V. If you connect a hall, to one lead and let the other input float, that input will float to 2.5V. Then your hall will pull from 0V to 5V. When ever your input crosses the floating 2.5V the output will change state. There's not any real figuring out, its more of how you wire it. The internals of the chip are the same for VR and hall.
The TLE8888-1QK integrates four detection modes:
• auto detection mode for VR sensor signals
• manual detection mode for VR sensor signals
• semi auto detection mode for VR sensor signals
• detection mode for Hall sensor signals
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
Ah, yes I can see that now. I can see how the peak detection and gain adjustments could add jitter to a hall signal. So it would be best to hold those at fixed values. I think those parameters are sent via SPI bus.
Welcome to the friendlier side of internet crazy
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
Finally got a trigger signal today, and engine started.
Solved by a 1K pull-up at DG+.
Still some other things left to sort, but at least its running
Solved by a 1K pull-up at DG+.
Still some other things left to sort, but at least its running
- AndreyB
- Site Admin
- Posts: 14356
- Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
- Location: Jersey City
- Github Username: rusefillc
- Slack: Andrey B
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
video or it never happened
Very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
Always looking for C/C++/Java/PHP developers! Please help us see https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
Always looking for C/C++/Java/PHP developers! Please help us see https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
Agree
I can't claim it ran fine or more than a few seconds.
I had a screwdriver in the throttle and the fuel pump jumped to run permanent.
I'll film it next time, but need to sort out some more things first.
Now I know it works, and all sensor readings look fine.
- AndreyB
- Site Admin
- Posts: 14356
- Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
- Location: Jersey City
- Github Username: rusefillc
- Slack: Andrey B
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
Very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
Always looking for C/C++/Java/PHP developers! Please help us see https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
Always looking for C/C++/Java/PHP developers! Please help us see https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
- AndreyB
- Site Admin
- Posts: 14356
- Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
- Location: Jersey City
- Github Username: rusefillc
- Slack: Andrey B
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
Hold on, if that's only dividers - would it work?
For example we have a 5v TPS which is a potentiometer. If you try to divide the output without op-amp isolation, do not you get a complex system of four resistors which are all affecting each other? Connecting your divider to the TPS would affect TPS reading would not it? Do I miss some magic mathematics which would account for that?
- Attachments
-
- 960_2.3_analog.png (11.86 KiB) Viewed 16725 times
Very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
Always looking for C/C++/Java/PHP developers! Please help us see https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
Always looking for C/C++/Java/PHP developers! Please help us see https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
I dont understand what you mean.russian wrote: ↑Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:18 am
Hold on, if that's only dividers - would it work?
For example we have a 5v TPS which is a potentiometer. If you try to divide the output without op-amp isolation, do not you get a complex system of four resistors which are all affecting each other? Connecting your divider to the TPS would affect TPS reading would not it? Do I miss some magic mathematics which would account for that?
Those arrays you see there replace 16 resistors, why would they affect each other?
I have perfect readings for all the analogs here.
Arrays are even used for the OEM analogs.
- AndreyB
- Site Admin
- Posts: 14356
- Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
- Location: Jersey City
- Github Username: rusefillc
- Slack: Andrey B
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
Yes you have reading but I believe that the readings are (a bit?) screwed. Maybe not so bad for TPS.
Say you have 5v TPS which is a potentiometer - really a resistor divider between 5v and GND which has some current in the middle. You have red board divider also between 5v and divider - it also has some (smaller?) current in the middle. You connect these two points and current starts to flow both ways?
Maybe measure TPS output voltage with and without red board dividers connected. I believe red board would affect the voltage on TPS output wire.
Maybe measure CLT output voltage with and without red board dividers connected. I believe red board would affect the voltage on CLT output wire.
Very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
Always looking for C/C++/Java/PHP developers! Please help us see https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
Always looking for C/C++/Java/PHP developers! Please help us see https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
Ah, now I understand.
I think kb1gtt would be the right one to answer this?
With 10K and 15K dividers, all my readings are spot-on to specs.
Even CLT and IAT are right.
For the potmeters, I guess they have low resistance,
but I dont know why the temperature sensors shows right.
The ECT sensor have 4.4K at 10 degrees and 200 Ohm at 100 degrees
IAT the same
TPS has 650 to 1320 Ohm
I think kb1gtt would be the right one to answer this?
With 10K and 15K dividers, all my readings are spot-on to specs.
Even CLT and IAT are right.
For the potmeters, I guess they have low resistance,
but I dont know why the temperature sensors shows right.
The ECT sensor have 4.4K at 10 degrees and 200 Ohm at 100 degrees
IAT the same
TPS has 650 to 1320 Ohm
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
I expect this can work. However the input will likely be non-linear. The inputs will likely need some software which translates this this curve to the real value.
Welcome to the friendlier side of internet crazy
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
Does the Lada ECU have a TC1762?
That's a 3.3V MCU I belive.
How does the analog circuits look?
That's a 3.3V MCU I belive.
How does the analog circuits look?
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
Would it be better with 100K and 150K for example?
It's strange that the temperature sensors shows right when cold, when they have 4.4K.
That's when they should show most wrong.
How will it look simulated?
- Dron_Gus
- contributor
- Posts: 457
- Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:11 pm
- Location: S-Pb
- Github Username: dron0gus
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
200 Ohm VS (200 Ohm || 30 KOhm) ~= 395Ohm. 2% make no much sense.
4.4K VS (4.4K || 30KOhm) ~= 3.8 KOhm. 14%.
Knowing additional parallel resistance introduced by input divider you can compensate it in SW.
In case of TPS it will be more complicated to compensate this.
4.4K VS (4.4K || 30KOhm) ~= 3.8 KOhm. 14%.
Knowing additional parallel resistance introduced by input divider you can compensate it in SW.
In case of TPS it will be more complicated to compensate this.
- AndreyB
- Site Admin
- Posts: 14356
- Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
- Location: Jersey City
- Github Username: rusefillc
- Slack: Andrey B
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
Thank you for the 2x5 header on the next design
- Attachments
-
- ME7_PNP.jpg (251.77 KiB) Viewed 16687 times
Very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
Always looking for C/C++/Java/PHP developers! Please help us see https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
Always looking for C/C++/Java/PHP developers! Please help us see https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
- AndreyB
- Site Admin
- Posts: 14356
- Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
- Location: Jersey City
- Github Username: rusefillc
- Slack: Andrey B
Re: PNP ECU for Vw/Audi ME7
Are there still any unused pins on the main CPU or are they all used?
If there are unused pins can you route them to a header to be exposed as spares?
If there are unused pins can you route them to a header to be exposed as spares?
Very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
Always looking for C/C++/Java/PHP developers! Please help us see https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
Always looking for C/C++/Java/PHP developers! Please help us see https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute