cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Hardware inside and outside of the ECU
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by AndreyB »

kb1gtt wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:49 am
Can you capture a picture with a sync pulse at TDC?
I think what we can is add second probe for cam sensor and have complete revolution on the screen?
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by Abricos »

jsss-8-75-2019.pdf
(5.31 MiB) Downloaded 527 times
it says "All sensor concepts are designed with respect to the geometrical dimensions and the requirements of an existing test bench with a diesel engine (1.6 L TDI, 66 kW, VW). The diesel works as a compression-ignition engine and therefore the sensors can be mounted in the glow plug bore of one cylinder without any engine modification. As a reference, a glow plug pressure sensor (PSG type, accuracy ±2 % FS, Beru) was mounted in a second cylinder, allowing a comparison of pressure profiles of nearly identical combustion cycles. Our sensor prototypes were tested at various engine speeds (1800–3600 rpm) and torque values (0–200 Nm).

For long-term runs, a test bench with a gasoline engine (air-cooled V-Twin, 479 cc, 11.8 kW, Briggs & Stratton) was used.


Different sensor concepts for time-resolved cylinder pressure monitoring of combustion engines are realized and evaluated in this paper. We distinguish a non-intrusive form of measurement outside the cylinder, performed by means of a force compression rod from intrusive, real in-cylinder measurement by means of pressure membrane sensors being exposed to the hot combustion process. The force compression rod has the shape of a sine wave with thinner zones equipped with highly sensitive foil strain gauges that experience a relatively moderate temperature level of 120 ∘C. The sensor rod delivers a relative pressure value that may be influenced by neighbour cylinders due to mechanical coupling. For the intrusive sensor type, two different materials for the membrane-type sensor element were simulated and tested, one based on the ceramic zirconia and the other based on stainless steel. Due to the higher thermal conductivity of steel, the element experiences only 200 ∘C while the zirconia element reaches 300 ∘C. Metallic chromium thin films with high strain sensitivity (gauge factor of 15) and high-temperature capability were deposited on the membranes and subsequently structured to a Wheatstone bridge. The pressure evolution can be measured with both types in full detail, comparable to the signals of test bench cylinder pressure sensors. For the preferential steel-based sensor type, a reliable laser-welded electrical connection between the thin films on the membrane and a copper wire was developed. The in-cylinder pressure sensors were tested both on a diesel test bench and on a gas-fired engine. On the latter, an endurance test with 20 million cycles was passed. Reliable cylinder pressure sensors with a minimum of internal components are thus provided. The signals will be processed inside the sensor housing to provide analysis and aggregated data, i.e. mass fraction burned (MFB50) and other parameters as an output to allow for smart combustion control.
"
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by Abricos »

Control Using an In-Cylinder Pressure Sensor for a Common-Rail Direct Injection Diesel Engine
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by andreika »

russian wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:17 am
Maybe we have the first video of the sensor output? Very unclear
Here's more real and clear data. :roll:
I've measured the response of glow plug 03L905061F 03L905061 (beru PSG007) using the compressed air.
pressure01.JPG
pressure01.JPG (75.5 KiB) Viewed 40836 times
Power consumption current (5V) = ~5mA
Output voltage (atmospheric pressure) = 1.7V
Output voltage (pressure ~7-8 bar) = 1.8V
Ouput noise level = ~20mV (ver low, equals to the power source noise level)
pressure02.JPG
pressure02.JPG (118.29 KiB) Viewed 40836 times
When pushing the central rod mechanically, the output voltage increases linearly up to 2V and above. If attempted to pull the rod out, the output voltage decreases to 1.6V and below. Also after releasing the mechanical spring "bouncing" effect is clearly seen.

The response to mechanical pressure:
pressure03.JPG
pressure03.JPG (120.79 KiB) Viewed 40836 times
The presumable formula is:
V = (0.34+0.0025*P)*Vs
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by andreika »

PN is 03L905061F see more info right above :)

Here's our first real data from the pressure sensor installed in a car, cranking (no combustion), 3rd cylinder:
pressure04.JPG
pressure04.JPG (182.42 KiB) Viewed 40422 times
If we measure the peak pressure moment, we get 208ms for 252ms period, it's 360*208/252 = 297 degrees from the sync. point, or 297-180-117 = 0 degrees, TDC! :D (117 is my trigger offset)



P.S. The glow plug is the same, VW 03L905061F.
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by andreika »

Now we have the real first pressure sensor + ion sense data on running engine! 8-)



The engine was idling at ~1200-1300 RPM with the short throttle acceleration up to 3000 RPM.
Here's the saved oscilloscope waveform for those playing at home:
running_pressure_sensor+ion_sense.wfm.zip
(796.06 KiB) Downloaded 444 times
Here's the rusEFI log file: And a couple of screenshots:
screen.png
screen.png (33.03 KiB) Viewed 40363 times
screen2.png
screen2.png (63.68 KiB) Viewed 40363 times
Legend:
Magenta color = ion sense,
Cyan color = pressure sensor,
Yellow color = 60-2 trigger.

The hardware setup is the same as in previous experiments, 3rd cylinder, batch ignition.
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by XXLO »

verry good. congratulations.

You run the engine with low load.
I have read in the ion sensinig docomentations, that peak preassure point is in low load conditions hardly to find. -> only only low current at low loads.
Maybe your red line in the picture points not to peak preassure point?

"Here is an other paper of ion sense information. (i dont see it in the first post of this thread)
http://www.not2fast.com/ignition/SAEPeakfind.pdf

There is written:
"Empirical studies [7], under steady stateconditions in a dynamometer, indicate that this isapproximately true but that the model has difficultiesdescribing low load phenomena, even if data is collectedunder ideal external conditions and then averaged. Thiscomplication is due to the fact that the post flame peakessentially vanishes if the load is less than 20% MBT2(see Fig. 3). It is worth mentioning, in this context, thatnormal driving on the highway is close to the low loadsituation."
"An ion current signal sampled during a single cycle on boardthe SAAB car while driving on the highway (solid line). The enginespeed was 1500 RPM and the load was approximately 25% of MBT.There are several wide peaks in the signal and the post flame phase isnot visible. The pressure trace is shown for comparison (dashed line)."


i think this the reason why you cant see peak preassure point in the oszilloskop videos.

Too low load in idle and rev up while car is standing still."
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by AndreyB »

andreika wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:21 pm
Now we have the real first pressure sensor + ion sense data on running engine! 8-)
Most interesting stuff is in Russian at https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=35040#p35039
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by AndreyB »

A little database of relevant glow plugs - most interesting is the fact that three different threads were used!
PSG001 - 55564163
* опель Insignia A 2.0 CDTI
* устарела, вместо неё PSG006
Overall Length [mm]: 179,9
Thread Size: M9x1,0
Voltage [V]: 4,4
Spanner Size: 12 mm
Glow Plug Design: with pressure sensor, after-glow capable, Pencil-type Glow Plug
Fitting Depth [mm]: 35
Connector type: 4 mm PIN (PSG)
Rated Current [A]: 8,5
Tightening torque to [Nm]: 10
Tightening torque from [Nm]: 8
Cone Pitch: 93
Failure Moment [Nm]: 22
GM 55564163
BERU PSG001
BERU 0103010903
4014427121831
OPEL 1826354
---------------
Insignia A 2.0 CDTI 2008-2018
Insignia MK1 2.0 CDTI 2008-2017
PSG003
55580403
55237483
* Opel Astra J/MK 1.3 CDTI
Overall Length [mm]: 132,2
Thread Size: M9x1,0
Voltage [V]: 4,4
Spanner Size: 12 mm
Glow Plug Design: with pressure sensor, after-glow capable, Pencil-type Glow Plug
Fitting Depth [mm]: 28
Connector type: 4 mm PIN (PSG)
Rated Current [A]: 8,5
Tightening torque to [Nm]: 10
Tightening torque from [Nm]: 8
Cone Pitch: 93
Failure Moment [Nm]: 22
---------------
Astra J 1.3 CDTI 2009-2019
Astra Mk6 1.3 CDTI 2009-2019
Corsa D 1.3 CDTI 2006-2019
Meriva B 1.3 CDTI 2010-2019
PSG004 - 55568366/55590466
* Опель Astra 1.7 CDTI
Overall Length [mm]: 168
Thread Size: M10x1,25
Voltage [V]: 4,4
Spanner Size: 12 mm
Glow Plug Design: with pressure sensor, after-glow capable, Pencil-type Glow Plug
Fitting Depth [mm]: 24
Connector type: 4 mm PIN (PSG)
Rated Current [A]: 25
Tightening torque to [Nm]: 20
Tightening torque from [Nm]: 15
Cone Pitch: 121
Failure Moment [Nm]: 35
GM 55568366
GM 55590466
BERU PSG004
OPEL 1214088
OPEL 1214104
---------------
Astra MK6 1.7 CDTI 2009-2019
Astra J 1.7 CDTI 2009-2018
PSG005 - 55571600
* Opel Zafira 1.6 CDTI (только)
Overall Length [mm]: 158,35
Thread Size: M10x1,0
Voltage [V]: 4,4
Supplementary Info: PSG
Spanner Size: 12 mm
Glow Plug Design: with pressure sensor, after-glow capable, Pencil-type Glow Plug
Fitting Depth [mm]: 31,4
Connector type: 4 mm PIN (PSG)
Rated Current [A]: 8,5
Tightening torque to [Nm]: 20
Tightening torque from [Nm]: 15
Cone Pitch: 93
Failure Moment [Nm]: 35
GM 55571600
BERU PSG005
4014427141709
BERU 0103010102
BERU 0103010107
OPEL 1214099
---------------
Zafira Tourer C 1.6 CDTI 2013-2019
Zafira MK3 1.6 CDTI 2013-2019
PSG006 - 55579436/55590467
* Thread Size M9x1.0
* Opel/Vauxhall 2.0 CDTI
* характеристики и размеры те же, что у 55564163
* она пришла на смену PSG001 и должна во всём совпадать с ней!
GM 55579436
GM 55590467
BERU PSG006
4014427141709
OPEL 1214087
OPEL 1214101
---------------
Astra MK6 2.0 CDTI 2009-2019
Astra J 2.0 CDTI 2009-2018
Cascada W13 2.0 CDTI 2013-2019
Insignia A 2.0 CDTI 2008-2018
Insignia MK1 2.0 CDTI 2008-2017
Zafira Tourer C 2.0 CDTI 2011-2019
Zafira MK3 2.0 CDTI 2011-2019
------------------------------------------
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Glow-Plug-with-Cylinder-Pressure-Sensor-2-0-CDTI-For-Opel-GM-55579436/372707821325?hash=item56c71e070d:g:01wAAOSwrl9dCkBg
= $101
https://www.ebay.com/itm/VAUXHALL-INSIGNIA-2-0-CDTI-A20DTH-GLOW-PLUG-PRESSURE-SENSOR-55579436-FITS-08-15/283666703111?epid=1925270380&hash=item420bda6307:g:3k0AAOSwjT9dwxFY
= $47 (б/у)
PSG007 - 03L905061G,03L905061F
* Thread Size M10x1.0
Overall Length [mm]: 148,5
Thread Size: M10x1,0
Voltage [V]: 4,4
Spanner Size: 12 mm
Glow Plug Design: with pressure sensor, after-glow capable, Pencil-type Glow Plug
Fitting Depth [mm]: 28
Connector type: 4 mm PIN (PSG)
Tightening torque to [Nm]: 20
Tightening torque from [Nm]: 15
Cone Pitch: 63
Failure Moment [Nm]: 35
VAG 03L905061 D/E/F/G/K
BERU PSG007
* на Ауди ставят только 1 такую свечу
----------------
Audi A1 1.4/1.6 TDI
Audi A3 1.6/2.0 TDI
Audi A4 B8/B9 2.0/3.0 TDI
Audi A5 B8/B9 2.0/3.0 TDI
Audi A6 C7 2.0/3.0 TDI
Audi Q2 1.6/2.0 TDI
Audi Q3 2.0 TDI
Audi Q5 2.0/3.0 TDI
Audi Q7 3.0 TDI
Audi TT 2.0 TDI
Skoda Fabia 3 1.4 TDI 2014-2019
Skoda Octavia 3 1.6/2.0 TDI 2012-2019
Skoda Rapid 1.4/1.6 TDI 2015-2019
Skoda Superb 3 1.6/2.0 TDI 2015-2019
Skoda Yeti 2.0 TDI 2015-2019
VW Caddy Alltrack 4 2.0 TDI 2015-2019
VW Golf 1.6/2.0 TDI 2014-2019
VW Golf 6 2.0 TDI 2008-2013
VW Golf 7 1.6/2.0 TDI 2012-2019
VW Jetta Mk5 2.0 TDI 2005-2010
VW Jetta Mk6 2.0 TDI 2011-2019
VW Passat B8 1.6/2.0 TDI 2014-2019
VW Polo 5 1.4 TDI 2014-2019
VW Tiguan 1 2.0 TDI 2015-2019
VW Tuareg 1/2 3.0 TDI 2004-2019
VW Touran 2 1.6/2.0 TDI 2015-2019
VW Transporter T6 2.0 TDI 2015-2019
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by AndreyB »

Different size as well
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by AndreyB »

I know this is a bid dead but kind of open question what engines have two spark plug holes from factory

v6/v8/v12 benz
v8 5.7, 6.1, 6.4 and 6.2 dodge?

open question which of those would be happy to run with just one spark plug.
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by Abricos »

[u]JDM[/u] 01-08 Honda Fit L13A i-Dsi Engine Cylinder Head
IMG_6930_b6694708-07e7-497c-8565-22c5c6659131.jpeg
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iDSI-01-1.jpg
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by mck1117 »

AndreyB wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:45 pm
I know this is a bid dead but kind of open question what engines have two spark plug holes from factory

v6/v8/v12 benz
v8 5.7, 6.1, 6.4 and 6.2 dodge?

open question which of those would be happy to run with just one spark plug.
They would probably run fine, but maybe be a little more knock prone and worse emissions. Easy, just run E85 :)
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by Abricos »

http://www.webmail.sensata.jobs/sensors/automotive-pressure-sensor-cpos.htm
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by sepp2gl »

Hi Guys,
besides Beru, Sensata and Hidria also Optrand would be a good choice for such a sensor.
A couple of years ago also Bosch and Continental worked on in-cylinder pressure sensors both for diesel engines with integrated glow-plugs and "stand-alone" for gasoline engines. But I don't know, if they discontinued their work.
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by sepp2gl »

...did anybody continue applying a diesel pressure sensor to a gasoline engine?
Or is this a dead thread?
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by Abricos »

sepp2gl wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:58 pm
...did anybody continue applying a diesel pressure sensor to a gasoline engine?
Or is this a dead thread?
Drama , software,programmers are not interested in this topic ... Yes it dead
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by nmstec »

Abricos wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:18 pm
sepp2gl wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:58 pm
...did anybody continue applying a diesel pressure sensor to a gasoline engine?
Or is this a dead thread?
Drama , software,programmers are not interested in this topic ... Yes it dead
The software, programmers would be false. I would love to continue progress on this. I have done something very basic and similar for TDC locating.
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by sepp2gl »

Well...
...the world is definitely not separated in ECU-software and ECU-hardware.
I like to see it Top-Down rather than Bottom-up.
Engine control is multi-domain.
It starts with understanding engine-functionality, combustion-system, thermodynamics.
It continues with the system perspective of engine control, incl. sensor/actuator-technologies, and this (the SYSTEM) is, where the complexity resides.
Third place: engine control functions (NOT software!). This is to describe, what is needed to fully control the engine. The "What need to be done".
As such this provides the requirements of ECU hardware and ECU software.
ECU hw & sw do the implementation and optimization; the "How".
That's why I strongly believe, that this forum needs extension "Engine Technology" and "System Analysis".
This thread would belong to "System Analysis" together with ion-Sensing.

Having said that, let's return to in-cylinder pressure sensing.
Did anyone really apply those diesel glow-plug sensors for a gasoline engine?

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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by sepp2gl »

@nmstec:
"for locating TDC"?
Why would you want to apply such an invasive technology just for locating TDC?
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by MHTSOS »

For when you have no access to the crankshaft, ie a Harley engine.

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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by sepp2gl »

That's why, I think this forum (and most others) needs an engine analysis chapter and a system design chapter.
The conditions of a specific engine need to be clarified in a separate activity and not in a software or (ECU)hardware chapter, and within it should be documented in a kind of engine-datasheet.

@mhtsos: Would you please cure my curiosity, why there is no access to the crankshaft of a Harley-engine?
Please excuse my stupid question.
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by mk e »

sepp2gl wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:40 pm

Would you please cure my curiosity, why there is no access to the crankshaft of a Harley-engine?
Please excuse my stupid question.
kr, sepp2gl
Its not that there is not access, its that there is no access without pulling the side cover and fitting a degree wheel which is the standard approach but was deemed to much bother iirc. The older ones had a plug in the case to check timing left over from the points days but on the new designs that's gone, so pull the side cover is the only way to physically check it these days from what I understand.
Last edited by mk e on Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by mck1117 »

sepp2gl wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:40 pm
why there is no access to the crankshaft of a Harley-engine?
There are zero exposed spinning parts on a Harley engine until the drive sprocket on the belt. You can't see any part of the crankshaft, camshaft, timing gears/chain, etc. All of those are behind covers and bathed in oil, so if you tried to run the engine with one of those covers off, all your oil would pour out.
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by sepp2gl »

mk e wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:53 pm
Its not that there is not access, its that there is no access without pulling the side cover and fitting a degree wheel which is the standard approach but was deemed to much bother iirc. The older ones had a plug in the case to check timing left over from the points days but on the new designs that's gone, so pull the side cover is the only way to physically check it these days from what I understand.
I understand and agree, that providing a timing-wheel to a crankshaft is a difficult issue.
But isn't it even more problematic to drill another hole into the combustion chamber for a Glow-Plug Pressure Sensor?
(Unless you need it only for the purpose of maintainance with a cold-motored engine.
Here you could use the spark-plug hole to get access for the GPPS.)
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by mck1117 »

sepp2gl wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:33 pm
But isn't it even more problematic to drill another hole into the combustion chamber for a Glow-Plug Pressure Sensor?
(Unless you need it only for the purpose of maintainance with a cold-motored engine.
Here you could use the spark-plug hole to get access for the GPPS.)
He didn't drill another hole, just put a sensor in the spark plug hole to test at cranking speed.
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by mk e »

mck1117 wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:43 pm

He didn't drill another hole, just put a sensor in the spark plug hole to test at cranking speed.
which I'm pretty sure gave him a number that is a few degrees before actual TDC...but as long as he's setting adjusting timing on the dyno it will all work out.
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sepp2gl
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by sepp2gl »

Hmmm...
I still don't understand the rational behind this doing.
Has a Harley engine got two spark-plugs, so he can replace one?
If he is doing cranking- (motored-)Test without combustion only, what is it good for to know TDC in motored operation?
Everything keeps being better ... ;)
mk e
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by mk e »

sepp2gl wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:15 am
Hmmm...
I still don't understand the rational behind this doing.
Has a Harley engine got two spark-plugs, so he can replace one?
If he is doing cranking- (motored-)Test without combustion only, what is it good for to know TDC in motored operation?
No, no, it was a setup thing not a while running thing. He pulled out the plug and cranked while logging then used the traces of crank position (guess) and peak pressure to get a better guess at the real crank timing and changed the number in the setup to be closer to real.
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sepp2gl
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by sepp2gl »

OK...got it now.
Thanks for clarification. :)
Everything keeps being better ... ;)
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