Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
Because that's how we schedule, I would avoid trying to put ignition near the missing tooth, since that's where we have the most timing uncertainty.
Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
So the solution for this wheel is to correct offset angle for the effect of the large tooth and let it go. Offset is largely away from sync point.
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
So long as it syncs reliably, yes. In fact, that's what Bosch did from the factory on their 60-2: the missing tooth is always centered-ish between two cylinders to that it's hard to have this problem.
Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
Do you agree that the timing gun is wrong at high rpm ?
Did you know that problem ?
Did you know that problem ?
Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
Some more tests today.
As Matt predicted once the first anormal tooth is passed sync is OK.
Strangely the sync is not on the male part of the tooth but in the void.
Changing the "use only rising edge" option did nothing.
As Matt predicted once the first anormal tooth is passed sync is OK.
Strangely the sync is not on the male part of the tooth but in the void.
Changing the "use only rising edge" option did nothing.
Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
Bad news after today's tests :
I triggered the scope with the "trigger error led" signal to investigate on high speed sync losses.
The scope showed repeatedly that the error was thrown on the end of the abnormal first tooth.
Crank signal and row vr signal were both absolutely normal. No spikes or other problem.
Does the software throw an error if instant RPM varies brutally?
I triggered the scope with the "trigger error led" signal to investigate on high speed sync losses.
The scope showed repeatedly that the error was thrown on the end of the abnormal first tooth.
Crank signal and row vr signal were both absolutely normal. No spikes or other problem.
Does the software throw an error if instant RPM varies brutally?
Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
I presume the long tooth is triggering the noise filtering code of trigger_central.cpp :
- AndreyB
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
Please post a link to your tune. I would suggest that you do NOT try noise filtering feature.
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
Due to the sync problems, Rusefi work is stopped.
3 solutions for me :
- having a working decoder programed by the devs
- having the oem ecu working with a normal 60 - 2 flywheel and cut the Renix flywheel to that spec
- add a 60-2 wheel on the crank pulley and a supplementary vr sensor. This has been done on the race engine for the 2l formula renault race car.
Will try to go on for the 2 which are in my hands.
3 solutions for me :
- having a working decoder programed by the devs
- having the oem ecu working with a normal 60 - 2 flywheel and cut the Renix flywheel to that spec
- add a 60-2 wheel on the crank pulley and a supplementary vr sensor. This has been done on the race engine for the 2l formula renault race car.
Will try to go on for the 2 which are in my hands.
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
Back to https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=40386#p40386
Can I please have a much longer, unedited block of gap sync output? I'd say 200 of these "gap" messages please?
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
Andrey the 60-2 is just a more modern version of the RENIX 44-2-2 or 66-2-2. All have the big male tooth at the beginning of sync part. So you have solved the problem in the past.
Will post the trigger log as soon as possible.
Will post the trigger log as soon as possible.
Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
Is this file OK ?
Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
Hello guys,
this will be my first post on this Forum and I hope its ok to introduce myself this way.
People do misunderstand this Renault tigger wheel.
I had this issue myself years ago.. I saw people grinding off this tooth because they could not get it working.
example: http://forum.diyefi.org/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2395&p=42661&hilit=renault+trigger#p42661
Also there should be other posts in other forums .. MS etc.
I think that Renault did this long teeth only to make sure that the engine can not turn in the wrong direction
Basically this problem ist easy to solve. One just needs to find the right settings.
Depending on the direction of rotation, either only rising or falling edge can be used.
With a classic 60-2 wheel, both falling and rising edge can be used in both rotation directions.
this will be my first post on this Forum and I hope its ok to introduce myself this way.
People do misunderstand this Renault tigger wheel.
I had this issue myself years ago.. I saw people grinding off this tooth because they could not get it working.
example: http://forum.diyefi.org/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2395&p=42661&hilit=renault+trigger#p42661
Also there should be other posts in other forums .. MS etc.
I think that Renault did this long teeth only to make sure that the engine can not turn in the wrong direction
Basically this problem ist easy to solve. One just needs to find the right settings.
Depending on the direction of rotation, either only rising or falling edge can be used.
With a classic 60-2 wheel, both falling and rising edge can be used in both rotation directions.
Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
I hope that the following picture makes it easier to understand.
With falling edges the trigger is by 0.5 tooth of..
[attachment=0]2465A_1.jpg[/attachment
With falling edges the trigger is by 0.5 tooth of..
[attachment=0]2465A_1.jpg[/attachment
- Attachments
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- 2465A_1.jpg (74.97 KiB) Viewed 18572 times
- AndreyB
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
i am not 100% sure if we have open issues here
if we do it could be either about sync or about non sync tooth positions
recent discovery is that logical VR flip is not same as wiring flip on MRE at least on Subaru
if we do it could be either about sync or about non sync tooth positions
recent discovery is that logical VR flip is not same as wiring flip on MRE at least on Subaru
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
When experimenting on that problem, the use of the "use only rising edge" option never had an influence on the result.
Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
How can you use the rising edge of the big tooth? When this edge is detected, the sync even has not yet arrived (the long time of the interval can only be treated at the end of the tooth) .
Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
The picture above is just an example. If one reverses the direction of roatation, rising edge will no longer work but falling edge will.
You may have an hardware setup that will only work with falling edge.
There will be one hardware/software configuration that will show you the correct gap length.
Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on MRE
Just take at look at you picture here. 2 teeth will have a duration of 3 indexes on your scope.
2 Missing teeth will have also a duration of 3 indexes.
If you only look at the rising edges of the long-gap-tooth you will see that you have a duration of 3,5 indexes.
If you only look on the falling edges you will see that you have a correct duration of 3 indexes.
If this is the signal that goes in to the Rusefi than you will only get an correct tigger signal with falling edges.
Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
Now I do not got a deep understandig of the rusefi code but I think that the code will only use rising edges independent of the "use ony rising edge" option in TunerStudio. May somebody correct me on this one.
If this is really the case you only can change this situation with hardware.
On possibility would be to use an logic inverter like:
https://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/on-semiconductor/NC7SZ05P5X/NC7SZ05P5XCT-ND/2053150
Or you could just grind away the long tooth
If this is really the case you only can change this situation with hardware.
On possibility would be to use an logic inverter like:
https://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/on-semiconductor/NC7SZ05P5X/NC7SZ05P5XCT-ND/2053150
Or you could just grind away the long tooth
Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
First Ruzki thanks for your knowledgeable help, I appreciate to have some interest for this topic.
Using the falling edge of the big male tooth is OK but has the drawback this edge is caused by the decay of magnetism along the tooth and not the effect of a well defined edge. Just for sync purpose it's OK.
For me, a hardware solution is not possible because you have to invert after the tle 8888 to keep it's signal processing features.
Milling the tooth is not a problem for me, I have the equipment in house but I need to keep oem ecu working for driving to the track.
Do you know if the Sirius 32 can work with a normal 60-2 wheel ?
Using the falling edge of the big male tooth is OK but has the drawback this edge is caused by the decay of magnetism along the tooth and not the effect of a well defined edge. Just for sync purpose it's OK.
For me, a hardware solution is not possible because you have to invert after the tle 8888 to keep it's signal processing features.
Milling the tooth is not a problem for me, I have the equipment in house but I need to keep oem ecu working for driving to the track.
Do you know if the Sirius 32 can work with a normal 60-2 wheel ?
Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
Maybe there are drawbacks but I can tell you that the cars I know do work for years with falling edge up to 7800rpm.
In my opinion it should work but I can not tell for sure because I've never tested it.
Maybe the guys who sell this are the right ones to ask:
https://efi-parts.co.uk/product/vw-audi-flywheel-for-renault-f-block-engine/
If you can not grind down the long tooth you will need to trigger through falling edge in any case.
By adding a logic inverter the ECU would trigger through falling edge as well.
BTW: Volvo B20F engines had a real 60-2 trigger wheel.
The wheel of this engines does fit for Renault F-engines since this Volvo engine is a Renault engine.
But it hard to find these engines nowadays.
In my opinion it should work but I can not tell for sure because I've never tested it.
Maybe the guys who sell this are the right ones to ask:
https://efi-parts.co.uk/product/vw-audi-flywheel-for-renault-f-block-engine/
If you can not grind down the long tooth you will need to trigger through falling edge in any case.
By adding a logic inverter the ECU would trigger through falling edge as well.
BTW: Volvo B20F engines had a real 60-2 trigger wheel.
The wheel of this engines does fit for Renault F-engines since this Volvo engine is a Renault engine.
But it hard to find these engines nowadays.
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
Root cause:
these TWO edges can move around with speed
these TWO edges can move around with speed
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
Has there been an improvement in trigger decoding since "snapshot_20210416_121019_mre_f4_rusefi" ?
I'm unable to reproduce the problem. The trigger decoding is perfect up 5800 RPM (upper limit of my flywheel spinner) with 60-2 decoder !
The only sync losses are the normal ones when sync catches up at very low RPM.
I'm unable to reproduce the problem. The trigger decoding is perfect up 5800 RPM (upper limit of my flywheel spinner) with 60-2 decoder !
The only sync losses are the normal ones when sync catches up at very low RPM.
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
Yes, there was probably a bunch of improvements of different natures - redundancy gap count in specific decoder and overall performance work across the board.
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Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
Should I reload old firmware to confirm the progress made?
Re: Renault special 60 -2 flywheel on microRusEFI
Reverted to old firmware. Trigger errors came back.
Congratulations for finding the problem!
Congratulations for finding the problem!