[info] Ignition modules

Hardware inside and outside of the ECU
Snokpelle
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by Snokpelle »

kb1gtt wrote:Why is it so hard to find protected MOSFET's?

I've been looking for a P-Channel, thermally protected, 10amp or more, enhanced mode MOSFET, DPAK or D2PAK, preferably with a voltage clamp protection. However so far no dice.
You should not choose a discrete MOSFET as a driver for a signal or source going out from an ECU, that is considered potentially dangerous in the automotive industry since a fault in a component or the harness must not cause a potential fire-hazard which a discrete driver has no ability to comply (a consideration in this case when people, most likely, are going to hack into their own wiring harness). So the reason you having difficulties finding such a device is most likely because there are device-alternatives matching the robustness and compliance criteria you need. Consider using Automotive-graded HSS/LSS for this, they are designed for this exact purpose makes your life easier, have HW-detected current cut-off and gives the possibility of SW diagnostics as well (most likely overkill here, but if one should want to do that in the future...).

Example of ST's HSS-devices (you should find devices up to 100Amp without problems):
http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/sense_power/FM1965/SC1037

If anyone is interested: The implementation in an OEM ECU is to relay on the internal current cut-off of the HSS/LSS for electrical issues, mainly to save the driver itself or other intra-ECU HW. But in addition to this you have a SW current characteristic profile (see it as the expected behavior of the actuator) this is continuously compared with the HSS-internal current measured feedback. If the true value goes outside the expected, the µC triggers the SW fail safe routine which is usually enough to prevent hazards such as harness damage caused by heat build up before the HW-cut-out is triggered. But both of these triggering conditions can of course be individually detected by the µC which sets diagnostics and possibly triggers fault recovery or limp-home state.
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kb1gtt
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by kb1gtt »

Thanks for the link and info. I have looked over those and posted my technical reply in this thread http://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=747&start=49 I was a bit miss-placed when I replied in this thread, as we have a high side drive that works for external ignitors, I was in the wrong forum when I posted that reply about high current high side drive. Oops.

Also I have added a note to the "general suggested environments" wiki found here http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Hardware#General_suggested_environment
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AndreyB
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by AndreyB »

russian wrote:Infineon BTS2140 is Obsolete, but still available for about $1.20 from China.
BTS2140-1B compatible
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by Rhinoman »

russian wrote:in the middle on the back we have two coil drivers mounted on the prototyping area.
Its better to use an external igniter, the coil signal is very noisy, a typical ignition IGBT clamps at around 400-450V. I don't know of any OEM ECUs that have the igniters internal.
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by AndreyB »

(I've moved to what I believe is a more relevant topic)
Rhinoman wrote:I don't know of any OEM ECUs that have the igniters internal.
My point is to use stock Dodge Neon 2003 ecu harness completely stock - I believe OEM has igniters inside ECU, see http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Vehicle:Dodge_Neon_2003

Same story with my long gone http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Vehicle:Mini_Cooper_2003

I believe BTS2140 was originally used by Bosch ECU like this one:
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by Rhinoman »

It looks like they separate the ignition signals from the others on the connector, I assume they also keep the wiring separate; that wouldn't be easy to do with the Mazda connector. Its easy for Bosch to do they have a lot of R&D money and can make most stuff in house to keep costs down.
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kb1gtt
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by kb1gtt »

Also on the list of internal igniters is my V8 96 Dodge RAM. I made no OEM harness changes. I added the ignition module to the Frankenso board, even used a little duct tape for insulation :) Some point I need to start spinning those IO re-mapping boards. The things I scabbed in there are not pretty.
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AndreyB
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by AndreyB »

because we know https://www.oshpark.com/shared_projects/OChRKHDe works do we need a x4 version for the v8 people?
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marko
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by marko »

Has anyone tried ST ignition driver IC VB325SP (or others, 025, 525, maybe more, some obsolete)

http://www.st.com/content/ccc/resource/technical/document/datasheet/group2/17/de/78/a8/5c/62/42/eb/CD00003432/files/CD00003432.pdf/jcr:content/translations/en.CD00003432.pdf

logic input, has diagnostic. Seems like... it was designed for this..?
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by AndreyB »

Welcome! Have not tried but thank you for the link!
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by kb1gtt »

Pleasure to meet you.

Do you have an application that needs ignition control? Should this be made into some kind of break out board?
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by marko »

Not specifically no. I've been researching a bit, taking apart some Bosch ECUs, etc.

Years ago I planned to megasquirt my old (now really old) Audi 200 with 10V 5cyl turbo. (it has K-jetronic mechanical injection, and hitachi distributor based electronic ignition. Hitachi ECU also controls things like fuel pump, knock, boost, can slightly influence the fuel mixture, etc).

Anyway I got looking back into it somewhat recently and megasquirt has really really crazy license (yet they somehow got the "open source" hype, which it is definitely not). Also I feel the hardware is very amateur night. So my dream is something like motronic, but instead of C167, STM32 which I am familiar with and has open tools. Use similar peripheral ICs for controlling things, things from ST or infineon (and some motorola, too) seem to be the best documented. They seem to be wide temperature range, load dump rated, built in diagnostics, etc... built for the purpose really. I think the sourcing of some bosch ones may be difficult sometimes too, so probably better to design around ones from others. Ie. today they are all on aliexpress but will that stick around?


I'm fairly confident Bosch actually gets ST to make their ICs too. The Bosch ICs are nice but documentation is lacking on many of them. ( I don't think anyone other than ST and Bosch ICs have that ugly font).




Anyway back to this topic, I'll have 5 coils for my 5 cylinders. Not sure if ill use 'dumb' coilpacks with driver in the ECU, or an amplifier in the engine bay (something like I linked) -- or use VW coilpacks (driver is integral) and use something like bosch CK110 or CK200 to drive those. (which is how 2000 ... 2010? era motronic does it).

CK110: http://www.bosch-semiconductors.de/media/automotive_electronics/product_information/CK110_Product_Info.pdf

CK110 isn't strictly necessary for VW (internal driver) coilpacks but having disgnostics is nice.

anyway kinda rambling, thanks for the welcome!
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kb1gtt
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by kb1gtt »

Purpose built chips have both pro's and con's. Component obsolescence is a real problem. Using more generic chips often have less obsolescence issues and typically work good enough. However purpose built chips are often smaller and commonly decrease the costs. Any how, some things to keep in mind.
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by Rhinoman »

marko wrote:I'm fairly confident Bosch actually gets ST to make their ICs too.

Bosch have their own fab.

I've used Ignition IGBTs with cheap comparator circuits to monitor current on a couple ECUs but mostly the igniters have been built into the coils. The integrated drivers will work OK, the semiconductor manufacturers only ever make ICs if there is a demand for them so they will be used in a high volume OEM ECU somewhere.
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by marko »

Rhinoman wrote:
marko wrote:I'm fairly confident Bosch actually gets ST to make their ICs too.

Bosch have their own fab.
Ahh, good to know. Shame they aren't a bit more open with the datasheets. It would be nice if the actual PN was on the IC, too :cry:
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AndreyB
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Re: Ignition modules

Post by AndreyB »

An improvement for https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/tree/master/hardware/DDPAK_breakout would be to make signal wire hole just a bit bigger.

Bottom-left hole on this picture

Code: Select all

1) RESOLVED IN R0.2 DPAK2 is apparently different than D2PAK, now it uses TO-263AB
2) RESOLVED IN R0.2 Make vias under large GND pad larger to allow more heat form iron during soldering
3) RESOLVED IN R0.2 move Via's to PCB edge to allow install on proto area of Frankenso
4) RESOLVED IN R0.2 add 4-40 mounting screw hole(s)
5)                  signal wire hole to be a bit bigger - bottom-left on https://raw.githubusercontent.com/rusefi/rusefi/master/hardware/DDPAK_breakout/BTS2140.jpg
Image
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Re: Ignition modules

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