FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

What engine are you torturing? Is it inside some car?
mk e
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FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

mk e wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:30 pm
russian wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:33 pm
You cannot attach THIS picture and not have at least some build thread URL or thread on this forum :)
Sorry again, here some info

http://gemellocattivo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8

Now back to ETB :)
I made a summary page
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/frankenferrari-v12-ferrari-308/148959/page1/

There's going to be a few pics and little blurb in the next edition I'm told

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AndreyB
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by AndreyB »

Since it's 14 pages there may I ask here - what are your ECU plans for this v12? What is it currently running on?
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

It just made road and track
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/classic-cars/a26030021/homemade-ferrari-308-v12-swap/

It has an enginelab setup with a "model"....control logic that I wrote. I posted an older version here somewhere, I can post the current version..... I wrote a user manual and everything.

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AndreyB
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by AndreyB »

Oh right, you've posted this before. https://enginelab.net which is way more powerful than https://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Flexible_Logic
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Yes and it probably has more stuff than most people need, portions might be interesting though.

If it's not broken it probably doesn't have enough features ;)

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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by AndreyB »

Can you please post latest version of your models? Hopefully it's possible to download the software to read them.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

I'm pretty good about keeping the most current here:
http://gemellocattivo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=153

And just did a zip with all the submodels and scripts which is where I put comments so here's that for you and the user manual that steps you through how everything is SUPPOSED to work.

The software is a free download here:
https://enginelab.net/downloads/
Its not REALLY programming so its perfect so someone like me :)

there are also .graphml files generated with every save that you open with
https://www.yworks.com/products/yed
Its a mess when it opens, go to view>hierarchical (I think) and it turns into a flow chart which can be helpful.

Its kind of where I was hoping o5e could go (and the reason I decide there was no point to o5e)...a bunch of canned functions you call to do almost anything at the control logic level without any chance of breaking the lower level actual programming....unless you divide by 0....it frikin HATES that, like locks up and required you to ope the case, solder on a connect and reload the low level com stuff hates it so after that I changed all the divides to include a logic test to be certain there can't be a 0.

Ask if you have questions.
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Not sure for how long but right now a pic of my engine is the homepage for grassroots magazine
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by AndreyB »

Well deserved!
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Thanks.

Did the EL stuff make any sense to you?

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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by AndreyB »

mk e wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:35 am
Did the EL stuff make any sense to you?
Did not even try opening, more like one day :(
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

russian wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:43 am
mk e wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:35 am
Did the EL stuff make any sense to you?
Did not even try opening, more like one day :(
Well...its not like you don't already have your hands full so I was a little surprised when you even asked about it....there is a fine line between distraction and help. I like it because I can make it do what I want, but you already have that.

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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by AndreyB »

mk e wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:32 am
there is a fine line between distraction and help.
OMG, I know which words I need on my next T-Shirt!
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by AndreyB »

How does your wiring look like? Do you have individual coil and injector control? Logic coils or power transistors driving them?

How does the ECU plug(s) look like - do you know part numbers etc?

Do you have cat converters on this car? I assume not really?

Pretty much I am asking if I can visit with a rusEfi and start your engine by simply swapping your EngineLab one day?
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

russian wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:18 am
How does your wiring look like? Do you have individual coil and injector control? Logic coils or power transistors driving them?
currently I have 12 logic coils (gm D585 copies) running waste spark, so 6 logic outputs from the ECU. Its wired to allow 12 as the ECU is capable HW wise to drive 12 but fw does not currently allow it so I have the wires share ECU pins for now hoping the FW changes.

12 injector pins. These are pretty big injectors, ID1000 that run a max of 35% duty cycle so they only spray into a moving air stream at power. This make low power a challenge as the its pretty much completely in the non-linear range at idle.....calculate the required fuel in grams then read fuel temp and differential pressure (fuel rail to intake runner) to get the current injector flow rate, then read the correction for the nonlinear stuff. Its a copy of the GM stuff the best I could work out and Jim revised the low level enginelab fuel control FW to allow this for me.

I'm sure it would run with a simpler slope/death time setup but this makes it way less sensitive....like the fuel pump was failing and I didn't even realize until the fuel pressure was down to about 10psi from the 58 it was supposed to be. A 10% trim or coolant correction means 10% more fuel is actually delivered. It just makes life easy.

How does the ECU plug(s) look like - do you know part numbers etc?
connector 1
ECU Header: Molex MX123 31387-2037, 73P GRAY key
Harness Plug: Molex MX123 34566-0203, 73P GRAY key
https://enginelab.net/documentation/#129_ECU_Connector_1_Pin_List

connector 2
ECU Header: Molex MX123 31387-2001, 56P BLUE key
Harness Plug: Molex MX123 34576-0703, 56P BLUE key
https://enginelab.net/documentation/#129_ECU_Connector_2_Pin_List

zip of my current pinout attached
Do you have cat converters on this car? I assume not really?
No cats
Pretty much I am asking if I can visit with a rusEfi and start your engine by simply swapping your EngineLab one day?
In theory yes. Clearly there would be some time to get my tune info converted to your inputs, the throttle needs to be working, fuel pump needs to come on, stuff like that so its not a 1 hour job and not likely a 1 day job......but its probably possible and once the valve seat is fixed and the engine runs again it could probably be done.
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AndreyB
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by AndreyB »

Thank you, great info!

Maybe one day this summer?

https://octopart.com/search?q=31387-2037 not in stock this was hopefully simply replaced with a different part number they have options https://www.molex.com/molex/search/partSearch?query=31387 but open question if https://www.molex.com/molex/products/datasheet.jsp?part=active/0313872002_PCB_HEADERS.xml or https://www.molex.com/molex/products/datasheet.jsp?part=active/0313872032_PCB_HEADERS.xml I am not 100% sure what is the difference. I guess if we decide to move in this direction I can ship you the plugs to validate and ship back?

Update: actually
31387-2002 is Au which is Gold $20
31387-2032 is Ag which is Silver $12
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mk e
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

I've not had to buy any connectors...the ECU came with what I needed so I'm no help. Yes, I could check a connector.

The timing will be about me fixing the engine. I keep thinking I'm ready to get to it and my wife keeps find other things for me to do so....I know I'll need a piston and that will probably take ...8 weeks to get on I order it. Anyway, I dodn't see it running before June.

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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by AndreyB »

That's a custom part, I guess it would take a dremel to make standard part work?
Thank you for contacting Molex technical support.

31387-2037 The part you mentioned is a restricted custom part. To obtain any information about this part, you must provide a letter of authorization from the OEM who owns these parts. If you are able to obtain that documentation and send it to me, then I can send you the appropriate documentation.

Unique PCB key solution. Not for the general market. The general market should look at 31387-2002.
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

russian wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:49 pm
That's a custom part, I guess it would take a dremel to make standard part work?
Thank you for contacting Molex technical support.

31387-2037 The part you mentioned is a restricted custom part. To obtain any information about this part, you must provide a letter of authorization from the OEM who owns these parts. If you are able to obtain that documentation and send it to me, then I can send you the appropriate documentation.

Unique PCB key solution. Not for the general market. The general market should look at 31387-2002.
I read it as saying the PCB park is custom and 31387-2002 is probably the same actual plug.

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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by AndreyB »

They have multiple colors keyed differently right? I wonder if that's another custom way to key while dremel would remove all keys. Can you make a detailed picture of your connector looking from above at the pins?
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

I'll take a couple pics tonight.

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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Here are the connectors
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by AndreyB »

Thank you! I cannot spot any difference between your picture and 31387-2002 3D PDF model, maybe these are just the same? Let me poke you in a April-May about a June/July visit :)
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by kb1gtt »

keying is done via the little tabs. See picture below.
keys.PNG
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See page 85 found here, it shows several key options.
https://www.molex.com/pdm_docs/sd/345660203_sd.pdf

I think the larger 73 pin connector is B coded.

The pins can be gold or silver. I can not tell if the pins here are gold or silver. Gold is a better contact, but I do not know if they can be mixed. Probably safest to simply get pins that match the existing harness connector.

It looks like the below are your two options for the 73 pin PCB side connectors.
Au terminals https://octopart.com/31387-2002-molex-20009815?r=sp&s=z8iz6SjhQ-enWrAA5bLrFA
Ag terminals https://octopart.com/0313872032-molex-71142256?r=sp&s=MF_cC3IPTbe5KjRF83XX1w
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Jim at enginelab is telling me he'll revise the FW to give me 12 coil outputs. I guess way back the HW was originally designed for 12 but AEM wanted more HS outputs so the board was revised and 0 ohm resistors installed to select but all production is the AEM format. I changed my board a couple years ago but that got me 10 normal, 1 inverted and 1 always on spark output.....so fw changed along the way and that is what Jim is digging into now...which honestly could be now but more likely after the the beta he just sent out is full released....anyway, I might be running 12 coils this summer....or might not......

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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

What or what could I possibly be planning with 4 of these.......hmmmmmm.......and what will the neighbors says?
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by Abricos »

dyno stand ... you make happy you're neighbors ...

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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

Abricos wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:31 pm
dyno stand ... you make happy you're neighbors ...
1/2 right. A buddy convinced me to let him try to assemble the bit he has that are almost a 1600hp engine dyno he thinks in my shop.. and the same day another buddy send me a link to the rollers.. hmmmmm... what could possibly go better with an engine dyno than a chassis adapter for it?

What I guess is missing is the valve and controller. A valve is pretty easy and not expensive but a controller. ...wait...I have and ecu that is already reading, logging, displaying all the engine info and have spare I/O... the dyno is just a load cell and an actuator.....oh yes the dyno controller will be the ecu. Enginelab Jim thinks we could even do the dyno control and any processing in the pc ecu simulator then feed it back to the ecu so we're just using the ecu HW as an I/O board so no additional processing.

Fingers crossed.

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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by mk e »

The Stuska dyno deal fell apart....I just didn't want to spend money and time setting up someone else's dyno and couldn't come to terms on a price....but last night craig's list delivered an older go-power DA-512 neigne dyno. it only rated at 800hp which I think, hope, is a little low but I'm pretty sure with some upgrades to the water feed setup it will go to 1000-1200hp...pretty sure.
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Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Post by AndreyB »

You have sweet toys :)

How does it go with the valve? Does the engine start as of today? Asking in light of the "rusEfi v12" idea using your engine.
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