EFI for small engines

Hardware inside and outside of the ECU
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jbiplane
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EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane » Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:14 pm

This 2 pictures are from Speeduino forum
The first picture
CIMG0931.JPG
CIMG0931.JPG (1.86 MiB) Viewed 529 times
shows typical Chinese kits started from 250 USD. Cheap, but very unreliable.
The second
like.jpg
like.jpg (2.12 MiB) Viewed 529 times
shows how it should be. It miss only crankshaft position sensor.

1. Is it possible to make ~Stm32 ECU with 2 injection and 2 ignition channels under 100 USD for end user? Should work for 2 and 4-strokes
I saw numerous attempts like https://www.nanoefi.com lasted for 5+ years, but nether finally sucseed.

2. Very good option many want to use starter gear dents for pulsing signal. An additional signal can be taken by different methods.

3. If ECU will small enough it can be placed on throttle body minimizing harness.

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by russian » Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:35 pm

jbiplane wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:14 pm
1. Is it possible to make ~Stm32 ECU with 2 injection and 2 ignition channels under 100 USD for end user? Should work for 2 and 4-strokes
I saw numerous attempts like https://www.nanoefi.com lasted for 5+ years, but nether finally sucseed.
It depends :) There is an option that D-sub connector like picture on your happy picture is not a healthy choice? I am not an electrical guy, I am just spreading rumors here. And a connector would cost a significant percentage of your $100 goal.

microRusEfi would be closer to $200 complete with pigtail while naked boards without connector around $130.
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:41 am

russian wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:35 pm
It depends :) There is an option that D-sub connector like picture on your happy picture is not a healthy choice? I am not an electrical guy, I am just spreading rumors here. And a connector would cost a significant percentage of your $100 goal.
microRusEfi would be closer to $200 complete with pigtail while naked boards without connector around $130.
Chinese copies of Microsquirt in plastic enclosure cost 32USD.
I think it is possible to avoid any cannector and have a bunch of colorful wires goes out of enclosure.
motoefi.jpg
motoefi.jpg (103.81 KiB) Viewed 511 times
Aluminum enclisure with 24 pins connector 11USD including delivery
1-kit-set-24-pin-way-ECU-automotive-plastic-enclosure-box-case-motor-car-LPG-CNG.jpg
1-kit-set-24-pin-way-ECU-automotive-plastic-enclosure-box-case-motor-car-LPG-CNG.jpg (135.45 KiB) Viewed 511 times
Aluminum enclisure with 2 of 24 pins connector 20USD including delivery
24_48.jpg
24_48.jpg (84.23 KiB) Viewed 511 times
Smaller cases like on attached picture I can mill by myself
Milled.jpg
Milled.jpg (304.04 KiB) Viewed 511 times

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by russian » Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:10 am

You can make microRusEfi cheaper by converting it to use STM32F407VET6 from eBay. I believe there are some main system chips for two cylinder which would be cheaper than TLE8888 we use in microRusEfi.

So go for it!
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by kb1gtt » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:29 pm

Why does the ECU need a connector when the leads are really short and everything is so easy to access? Are there other low cost weather seals? Also why does it matter if it's costs less then $300? I think MRE is likely a good short term solution.
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane » Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:10 pm

kb1gtt wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:29 pm
Why does the ECU need a connector when the leads are really short and everything is so easy to access?
If project will successful It will be nice to finally make bolt-on fuel injection kits:
- aircraft models engines
- 2stroke one cylinder paramotors
- 2stroke 2 cylinders engine for 115kg airplane
- Honda industrial one and two cylinder engines and clones
...
In this cases wire harness with correct lengths and set of sensors would be good.

For small engines it would be very desirable is to:
- Fuel Pump PWM, cause they have too few energy from generator
- Use as reference starter gear + one dent based induction sensor instead of geared wheel with missed tooth.


For aircraft and model engines very compact PCB could be integrated to throttle body and instead of TPS used variable resistor on board, MAP on board, and Intake temperature sensor inside of throttle very close to PCB
2S TB Clear.jpg
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by russian » Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:21 pm

Let's begin from the beginning.

What skills do you have? Can you solder? Can you mill aluminum? Can you write software? Can you design PCBs?

You are talking about a pretty wide range of engines. Where are you with these engines? You assume we can read your mind? We cannot. Is this engine 300 grams total? 3 kilograms total? 30 kilograms total?

Do you have any running engines? Do you have one running engine? Do you have 10 running engines? Do you have 100 running engines? 10000?

Are you looking for any help? Do you have any specific questions? Are you asking to design a custom PCB for your specs?

I made an effort to help you help us help you. Please return the favor by taking your time and please answer as many of these questions as possible.
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:27 pm

russian wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:21 pm
Let's begin from the beginning.
What skills do you have? Can you solder? Can you mill aluminum? Can you write software? Can you design PCB?
You are talking about a pretty wide range of engines. Where are you with these engines? You assume we can read your mind? We cannot. Is this engine 300 grams total? 3 kilograms total? 30 kilograms total?
Sure. Personally me an airspace engineer with knowledge FEA, CFD, CNC, metal casting simulation and engine dynamics.
I design and produce 2-stroke engines since 2014. The production ready are:
- 2-stroke boxers with volume 90, 120, 182, 210, 294, 342cc
- 2-stroke inline with volume 141 and 550cc
Most engines use carburetors, but sometimes I install fuel injection.
First I used Ecotrons EFI solutions. But it burn time to time and don't allow fluently edit all parameters I need.

Some time ago one my former colleague made project named SmartEMS
2 independent channels for ignitions and 2 channels for fuel injections. He made standalone board changing original design.
SmartEMS.jpg
SmartEMS.jpg (109.85 KiB) Viewed 468 times
Now I have in stuff electronic engineer who can help me with EDA design, soldering, tests.
Finally I want cheapest possible board with ~24 pins (or a bit more) connector in aluminum cases suited for the most of my engines.

Second stage (not now) will be tiny board for 10...50 cc engines which are only designing now and will tested first with carbs.
Last edited by jbiplane on Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:13 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by russian » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:37 pm

jbiplane wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:27 pm
I will continue work with SmartEMS, but going at least try something else before finally choose.
At moment I want cheapest possible board with ~24 pins (or a bit more) connector in aluminum cases suited for the most of my engines.
What makes you look for an alternative solution?

To be honest https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthr ... RC-engines
My company created cost effective and very easy to setup by nonprofessional ECU. SmartEMS suited for 2-stroke and 4-stroke engines
leaves a bit of a bad taste: I do not see Speeduino mentioned.
Technically it's none of my business and technically maybe you have a license, and technically I could wrong about how open source licensing works.
russian wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:21 pm
Are you looking for any help? Do you have any specific questions? Are you asking to design a custom PCB for your specs?
I am still wondering about this part.
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane » Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:37 pm

russian wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:37 pm
To be honest https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthr ... RC-engines
My company created cost effective and very easy to setup by nonprofessional ECU. SmartEMS suited for 2-stroke and 4-stroke engines
leaves a bit of a bad taste: I do not see Speeduino mentioned.
Don't be wrong. At the moment of advertisement SmartEMS was based on PLC, stable as hell but hell in programming as well.
To dont mess, inside our company Speeduino based board was called "SmartEMS Lite". No one engine with SmartEMS Lite were sold.
I am in communication with Speeduino core and will resolve any licensing issues if appear.

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by russian » Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:39 pm

jbiplane wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:37 pm
Don't be wrong.
I was going with the information you've shared :) Thank you for the clarification.
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane » Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:10 pm

russian wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:21 pm
Are you asking to design a custom PCB for your specs?
Yes, but I have not interests from my customers to EFI at the moment and any budget to offer right now. I can write clear tech specs of 2level boards which would be accepted by market. EFI solutions derived from automotive industry are too bulky, require heavy generator on board, increase the price, and don't look reliable on heavy vibration engine. It will a lot of R&D and would require some stories of success to attract real attention.

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by russian » Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:24 pm

One cylinder system chip tle8080 https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product ... e8080-3em/

Also see https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/applica ... arter-kit/

I have no idea how to make a PCB survive vibration, I am a software developer. I wonder what would be the temperature if you get closer to engine, our stm32 is only rated for relatively low temperature.

What would be the cheapest test mule engine setup with one or two cylinders but high revs? A Chinese scooter or something cheaper already with EFI so that I can play right away?

A budget for R&D would be nice :)
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by kb1gtt » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:52 am

If I were to strap a motor to my back, a varation of $300 would not be a concern. Also it would be carb. As you mentioned EFI has issues with minimal improvements. I'm not so worried about vib. I'm more concerned with thermal.
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane » Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:13 pm

russian wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:24 pm
I have no idea how to make a PCB survive vibration, I am a software developer. I wonder what would be the temperature if you get closer to engine, our stm32 is only rated for relatively low temperature.

What would be the cheapest test mule engine setup with one or two cylinders but high revs? A Chinese scooter or something cheaper already with EFI so that I can play right away?
It is not a problem to place ECU in a place where themperature not exceed 50C (or 122F).

The most of Chinese 4-stroke snowbikes, ATV, motorcycles, outboards and other use ECU named delphi mt05.
Supported vehicles here http://ecupro.ru/delphi-mt05x-bitbox/mo ... uli-bitbox
There are 5 versions
MT05 Generic 1 CYL ECU 36 pins
MT05 Generic 2 CYL ECU 36 pins
MT05 2 CYL ECU w 2 O2 Sensors 36 pins
MT05.1 Generic Low Cost 1 CYL ECU 18 pins only
MT05 1 CYL ECU WO IACV 36 pins
English service manual http://www.faqstels800g.ru/data/documen ... Manual.pdf
Russian manual for delphi http://forum.atvclub.ru/index.php?attachments/415396/

For high rev 2-strokes usefull to read https://www.ecotrons.com/small_engine_f ... ction_kit/

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by kb1gtt » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:42 am

My concerns are not vib. Vib can be dealt with by making component selections that play nice. My concerns are the thin air and how it effects the thermal properties. I'm sure you know about carb heaters for deicing. There are many thermal considerations which need to be considered.

My next big concern would be the magneto. We currently run alternator. Magnetos are different.

I think you are looking for a very specific engine with a very specific matching ECU. I don't think a generic solution would work well for this.
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane » Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:49 pm

kb1gtt wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:42 am
My next big concern would be the magneto. We currently run alternator. Magnetos are different.
No, I use alternator with rectifier and 14V LiPo battery for electrical starter.
kb1gtt wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:42 am
I think you are looking for a very specific engine with a very specific matching ECU. I don't think a generic solution would work well for this.
Nothing specific, just legal very simplified alternate to "Microsquirt module"
http://microsquirtmodule.com/
which will cost about 100USD in enclosure to the end customer and managed well by Tuner Studio.
Microsquirt work perfectly for injection of 2-strokes up to 12000 rpm. For bigger rpm even racing "fuel nozzles" behave badly.
My friend make simple schematiq for 2 nozzles to squirt each second rpm. This way one can use any cheap nozzle from "grossery shop".
But most of engines work max 8000 rpm.

Small history of instalation of MS1 on scooter https://www.drive2.ru/c/1628403/ (on Russian)

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by russian » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:35 pm

@jbiplane how would you like to contribute to nanoRusEfi based on tle8080? Would you be available to design a small test module PCB for jbiplane similar to viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1496?
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane » Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:05 am

russian wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:35 pm
@jbiplane how would you like to contribute to nanoRusEfi based on tle8080?
I should understand what exactly meant contribution in your project. Personally me mechanical engineer who have experience of instalation and testing of existing EFI on small engines, analyzing results, optimyzing engine performance by tuning of components geometry, ignition and EFI settings. I have in stuff one electronic engineer who use Altium designer, but he dont understand exactly how engines work.

A question. Do you have rough BOM of microRusEfi with pricing (for small batch) from any supplier to analyse price structure and understand what can be removed. May be exist simple way to rip some components from existing microRusEfi board to 2injection and 2ignition channel configuration?
The most vital for small engines not a size, but price. EFI system cannot be few times more expensive than engine itself.
Please have a look at https://skemman.is/bitstream/1946/29570 ... kardur.pdf This is board for 4-cylinder ECU. It is just for reference, not something to follow. Just want to fit in the same price range.
4cylinder.jpg
4cylinder.jpg (128.29 KiB) Viewed 339 times
The TLE8080... provides a compact and cost optimized solution for 1 cylinder combustion engine management systems
Even for one cylinder engines I use 2 spark with small angle shift and 2 injections in different time. Would be TLE8080 enough?
May be exist something else. What do you think of L9177A, NXP MC33814 and other solutions for 2-cylinder engines?

Though here https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/applica ... arter-kit/ speaked of 2 cylinder extention...

One engineer told me "TLE8080 is interesting but i think it is smaller to use discrete components because it have 5 low side drivers and a variable reluctance amplifier, but you don´t need VR sendor amplifier since we are using hall sensor, and we only need a low side mosfet (or two) and they are very small... ignition, it do not include ignition driver, so you still need to add a IGBT transistor"

You know most of users will be happy to have simple unil like attached
Model engine EFI.pdf
(806.92 KiB) Downloaded 7 times
Pressure sensor and air themperature on board. ECU fills only rpm and inject according table fuel ammount vs rpm.
Possible adjust curve by button directly on ECU.

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:47 pm

russian wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:22 pm
Just a friendly reminder that CKKB48-1-A.pdf is available in the top level folder of https://github.com/rusefi/hw_microRusEfi
This case looke a bit more compact, very strong and light design and could be preferred?
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 5221NXgvgW
Attachments
One-Hole-48-Pins-Auto-ECU-Enclosure.jpg
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by russian » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:09 pm

jbiplane wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:47 pm
very strong and light design and could be preferred?
Preferred by whom for what?

I believe that microRusEfi case factor is now decided and there are currently no reasons to change. Could be a good case for nanoRusEfi is anyone would ever make one!
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:23 pm

russian wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:09 pm
Could be a good case for nanoRusEfi is anyone would ever make one!
I would be ready to make and test one fitted in this enclosure If I had Gerber and BOM
32pin box.jpg
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32pin box1.jpg
32pin box1.jpg (93.2 KiB) Viewed 87 times
It is 32 pins. Could be
1. +12V
2. -
3. power ground
4. analog sensors ground
5. IAT
6. CLT
7. O2
8. TPS
9. 5V
10 11 crankshaft position sensor
12 13 camshaft position sensor
14 15 16 17 ignition (for smart coils)
18 19 20 21 injection
22 23 CAN
24 fuel pump
25 26 27 28 stepper idle
29 30 31 32 additional grounds for injectors

Other case is bigger, but have variants for 24, 32 and 48 pins
48pin box.jpg
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by kb1gtt » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:54 pm

Is that a slightly different enclosure? Why do you not like the original MRE enclosure?
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by GY6_EFI » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:03 am

Hi all !

I have low verbal practice in english but i am interested! I cаn make two layer PCB, have experience in using PCB soft, soldering and can understand code.

I think small engine is very impotant for this project! You can easyly buy megasqurt for 230 bucks if yоur car cost about 10k++. But this wil not be variant if yor engine is GY6 and cost 200$. But its VERY npopular in US! A lot of guys make upgrades, and serious mods, but all is stick to carb. And nowdays carb skillis is not very usefull, for sure.
That makes some opportunity for rusEFI. Chinise guys make kits but their support is non existent! And they dot have really working plug and play kit fo gy6! But thay have very interesting parts... Image

It claims direct to valve injection, and some guys interested in selling it and stuff like this. If it possible to develop board for around 70 bucks for 1 cylinder engine, i think here potential fo some kind of "cooperation" at least maybe pop-ups with donation links, for project in tuner soft, and popularity. Maybe official "ali-links" - project have forums, and here gy6 related forums too.

I will try to contribute if i get my gy6 vehicle. And here someone else interested! My native language is russian.

Link to most recent, popular chinise kit(different fuel pump), their soft is dated 2009 and i not sure if it ever work correctly. But their kit work well for chinise product.... At first look.

https://ru.aliexpress.com/item/32786077 ... b201603_52
Last edited by GY6_EFI on Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:22 am

kb1gtt wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:54 pm
Is that a slightly different enclosure? Why do you not like the original MRE enclosure?
I looking for smallest possible enclosure with 32 pins. The box I found is much easier got from Chinese suppliers.
It is 35% shorter, 2 times lighter and considerably cheaper, below 10 USD including connectors.
The only concern if RusEFI can be fitted to 75x75mm PCB.

https://ru.aliexpress.com/item/32786077 ... b201603_52
I spent too much time on their hardware software. Not satisfied at all.
Last edited by jbiplane on Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by russian » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:30 am

It looks like no one with KiCad skills is currently interested to spend time on nanoRusEfi.

If you want to invest your time or funds into this I suggest you start by designing or hiring someone to make viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1612 maybe it could be designed for $50 who knows.
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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by GY6_EFI » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:45 am

KiCad looks well documented.

we will decide about gy6 vehicle on next week. is TLE8888 variant a four layer PCB?

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by jbiplane » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:53 am

russian wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:30 am
It looks like no one with KiCad skills is currently interested to spend time on nanoRusEfi.
Is there easy way to transfer microRusEFI to ALTIUM DESIGNER?

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Re: EFI for small engines

Post by kb1gtt » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:22 am

Not that I'm aware of, but it might go the other way :) I suggest learning KICAD, I really see little reason to use Altium, it limits your ability to share with designers.
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