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Guentherguenther
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Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:05 am

Hello there!

Post by Guentherguenther »

Hi,

I'm Thomas from Germany. In the past I worked with UMC1 (MS2 derivative) and Speeduino (Core4 with DIY VR-conditioner and Spartan2 OEM) on Opel 4-cylinder engines such as C18XEL and C20NE. Now I need an ECU for a E16SE ITB project, which can process MAF as Primary engine load sensor, so there is only the MS2 and rusEFI. The engine is pretty straight forward: Z16XEP pistons with crush edge of 0,9mm, standard cylinder head machining with bigger inlet runners, 4-1 exhaust manifold, Jenvey ITBs etc. Planned with this engine: semi-sequential injection, wasted spark using Opel coil with integrated drivers from X16SZ.
I heard about rusEFI a few months ago and I instantly fell in love with the Prometheus board because of the built-in WB-controller, knock processing and Bluetooth.
Unfortunately, I'm a total noob when it comes to fine-pitch SMD assembly, so a Kit for DIY-soldering is not suitable for me, so I forgot about the Prometheus.
Now I heard of MRE and I love the compact housing and the high-quality-connector. But when I read of the limited possibilities (no knock processing, no WB-controller and Bluetooth onboard) it was no longer on my scope of interest.
Nevertheless, I downloaded the simulation folder with the rusefi.ini and played around a bit in TunerStudio. The possibilities of rusEFI are quiet big, but I've got a few questions:

- in TS, I did not found the optical 3D-map, only the 3D-tables. For better visuals I prefer the 3D-Maps, so is there a possibility to display them or is this feature planned in the future?

- in the documentation, I read about the following:
MAF-based or MAP-based table fuel lookup with interpolation - these algorithms are pretty rough since they do not account for ambient air temperature but not many sensor are required to run.
--> so to say, MAF is not really accurate because of a simple algorithm? Why do they not take account for ambient temperature? I want to use Bosch HFM5 0 280 218 019 (10-480 kg/h) MAF with integrated IAT sensor. Did I understand the quote right that the rusEFI won't trim the injection in dependence on the IAT?

- in TS, I read about "MAF Air charge" fuel algorithm. What is the difference to "MAF"?

- it might sound a little bit noob-like, but I do not understand the difference between
MAP-based table fuel lookup with interpolation [...]
and
MAP-based Speed Density model, with fuel auto-tune provided by a fully registered copy of TunerStudio
. In the past, I only worked with Speed Density on MS2 and Speeduino, so Auto Tune worked just fine. Does this mean, Auto tune is not possible with MAF algorithm? What is the difference between a "MAP table lookup" and a "MAP-based Speed Density model"?

- I really love the Prometheus board because of it's compact and fully-integrated design. Is there a possibility to get a fully assembled PCB? Because of the integrated drivers on my coil I do not need the BIP373 but just some gate drivers like the TC4427. Is there a possibility to implement them?

Best Regards
Thomas

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AndreyB
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Re: Hello there!

Post by AndreyB »

https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/Hardware
No plans to offer assembled units.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
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OrchardPerformance
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Re: Hello there!

Post by OrchardPerformance »

Hi Thomas.

I can probably answer most of these for you and the good news is that most of these things refer to features that have been updated or improved and the documentation has not caught up yet.

So going from the top:
(no knock processing, no WB-controller and Bluetooth onboard) - Andrey has commented that sometimes andreika (the developer) is 3 years ahead of us. :lol:
He has a new board the Hellen which might be worth checking out.

We are working on Knock control on the Proteus board but it is some way off at the moment.
Blue tooth is coming for the Frankenso and possibly to some others but again it is a way away.
Onboard wideband is something we have put on hold for now due to the low cost of the products provided by SLC and the good offerings from AEM.
- in TS, I did not found the optical 3D-map, only the 3D-tables. For better visuals I prefer the 3D-Maps, so is there a possibility to display them or is this feature planned in the future?
I think these are only available on the paid version of TS?
Are you using TS lite?
Someone will correct me if that is wrong.
MAF-based or MAP-based table fuel lookup with interpolation - these algorithms are pretty rough since they do not account for ambient air temperature but not many sensor are required to run.
--> so to say, MAF is not really accurate because of a simple algorithm? Why do they not take account for ambient temperature?[/quote]
Can you let me know where that comment was so I can remove it.
This will refer to the old systems that have now been much improved.
Speed density is fully temperature compensated as is the new "MAF air charge" method due to the way MAFs work.
It may be a reference to using the raw output from MAP or MAF which can be done using the old "MAF" option or the pure MAP option (though I do not know why anyone would do that).
I want to use Bosch HFM5 0 280 218 019 (10-480 kg/h) MAF with integrated IAT sensor. Did I understand the quote right that the rusEFI won't trim the injection in dependence on the IAT?
Do you have a transfer function curve for that MAF?
Otherwise there is a list of MAFs we have curves for on the forum somewhere, you may have to do a quick search for it.
It would be best to use one with an available curve as it makes things a lot easier.
- in TS, I read about "MAF Air charge" fuel algorithm. What is the difference to "MAF"?
This is the new MAF method, it has a small amount of work to be done on it but noting that could not be sorted out quickly.
The new documentation for that is here:
https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/MAF
- it might sound a little bit noob-like, but I do not understand the difference between
MAP-based table fuel lookup with interpolation [...]
and
MAP-based Speed Density model, with fuel auto-tune provided by a fully registered copy of TunerStudio
. In the past, I only worked with Speed Density on MS2 and Speeduino, so Auto Tune worked just fine. Does this mean, Auto tune is not possible with MAF algorithm? What is the difference between a "MAP table lookup" and a "MAP-based Speed Density model"?
So this is referring to using a proper speed density instead of just the raw output from a MAP sensor. I feel there is no reason to use just a raw sensor output
Auto tune with MAF has not yet been tired as we have only run a couple of engines with the new MAF algorithm but as you can see from the wiki page above, the new MAF algorithm is kind of self base mapping and then only needs small corrections for ideal fuel.

- I really love the Prometheus board because of it's compact and fully-integrated design. Is there a possibility to get a fully assembled PCB? Because of the integrated drivers on my coil I do not need the BIP373 but just some gate drivers like the TC4427. Is there a possibility to implement them?
This question would be best directed to andreika.
The native output of most of the RE ecus is a 5v for smart coils but the Prometheus uses that output to activate an IGBT to drive the coil. I expect that the BIP can just be removed and a jumper put in to pass the signal to the output.

Guentherguenther
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Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:05 am

Re: Hello there!

Post by Guentherguenther »

Hi,
I think these are only available on the paid version of TS?
Are you using TS lite?
I'm using the registered version of TS. The following picture is an example what I mean for the Ignition advance of my MS2 powered C18XEL. It would be nice to have such tuning maps for rusEFI.
3D.PNG
3D.PNG (148.28 KiB) Viewed 240 times
Can you let me know where that comment was so I can remove it.
You can find it here: https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/Fuel_Overview
Do you have a transfer function curve for that MAF?
Yes, I'm using the regression of the king's equation for calculating the MAF curve. B&G did some good job on developing a freeware calculating program, called "MAF_analyzer" This seems to work fine.
I expect that the BIP can just be removed and a jumper put in to pass the signal to the output.
I'm expecting that, too. Most of the MS2 derivatives use just the same BIPs as the Prometheus does and you can just solder B to C and use the signal, but a buffer of driver IC would be the most elegant method I think.

Is there a possibility that someone from this forum can complete a Prometheus kit for me? I tried soldering fine-pitch SMD a few times but failed and wasted a lot of money on it. Larger pitches like SOIC are no problem, but even QSOP is too fine for me :lol:

Best Regards
Thomas

OrchardPerformance
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Re: Hello there!

Post by OrchardPerformance »

I'm using the registered version of TS. The following picture is an example what I mean for the Ignition advance of my MS2 powered C18XEL. It would be nice to have such tuning maps for rusEFI.
3D.PNG
There is a little tick box in the top right corner of the maps that should put it into 3d mode.
Can you let me know where that comment was so I can remove it.
You can find it here: https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/Fuel_Overview
Thanks, I moved that page over from out legacy wiki so I will edit that one today.
Do you have a transfer function curve for that MAF?
Yes, I'm using the regression of the king's equation for calculating the MAF curve. B&G did some good job on developing a freeware calculating program, called "MAF_analyzer" This seems to work fine.
Should be ok then for the new MAF air charge method, any error can be tuned out in the corrections table.
Do bear in mind we have a few things to finish off on that but the hope is that will be done soon.
I expect that the BIP can just be removed and a jumper put in to pass the signal to the output.

I'm expecting that, too. Most of the MS2 derivatives use just the same BIPs as the Prometheus does and you can just solder B to C and use the signal, but a buffer of driver IC would be the most elegant method I think.
We do use the TC4427 on the Frankenso/MRE/Proteus, are they not on the Prometheus?
I am not as familiar with that board.
We did discuss last night making a small board to take the signal from an MRE and buffer it with 4x TC4427 to allow the MRE to run 2 injectors from the existing injection outputs. (2.1A limit so a bit close for 2x 14 ohm injectors)
Maybe this is something that could be useful here?
I suggested it for a very niche application I have for a friend.
Is there a possibility that someone from this forum can complete a Prometheus kit for me? I tried soldering fine-pitch SMD a few times but failed and wasted a lot of money on it. Larger pitches like SOIC are no problem, but even QSOP is too fine for me :lol:
Very possible, have to see if someone is willing to volunteer.

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AndreyB
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Re: Hello there!

Post by AndreyB »

Guentherguenther wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:15 pm
Prometheus board because of the built-in knock processing
I would love to learn more about Prometheus knock processing, where can I read more? All I know is at https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/knock_sensing
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

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AndreyB
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Re: Hello there!

Post by AndreyB »

Guentherguenther wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:52 am
I'm using the registered version of TS. The following picture is an example what I mean for the Ignition advance of my MS2 powered C18XEL. It would be nice to have such tuning maps for rusEFI.
3D.PNG
That's your chance to help! I see that for example rusEFI "target AFT table" has 3D view checkbox but somehow ignition does not. Please open .ini files and see if you can fix it :)
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

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andreika
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Re: Hello there!

Post by andreika »

Guentherguenther wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:52 am
Most of the MS2 derivatives use just the same BIPs as the Prometheus does and you can just solder B to C and use the signal, but a buffer of driver IC would be the most elegant method I think.
Yes, you can solder jumper wires instead of BIPs. I've used Prometheus with logic-level COPs just fine:
!logic-coils-jumpers.jpg
!logic-coils-jumpers.jpg (137.15 KiB) Viewed 213 times
Also here you can see a built-in buffer IC (on the top of the photo), which is enough to drive logic-level COPs, and nothing more needed.
Guentherguenther wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:52 am
Is there a possibility that someone from this forum can complete a Prometheus kit for me? I tried soldering fine-pitch SMD a few times but failed and wasted a lot of money on it. Larger pitches like SOIC are no problem, but even QSOP is too fine for me :lol:
One of possibilities is to use JLCPCB pre-assembly service for Prometheus. They cannot solder all the parts (the board needs two-sided assembly, and JLC does only one side, and they solder only the parts they have in stock). But nevertheless they can solder some of the most difficult fine-pitch parts for you: STM32F405RGT6, MCP6004T-I/ST and CP2102-GM, as well as 74HCT04, DRV8825, SN65HVD230D, ADUM1201ARZ, ABM3B-8, and also all resistors/capacitors/diodes. But unfortunately they don't have MAX9926, so still some soldering is required... To use their service, you'll need pick&place (CPL) and BOM files in addition to gerbers...

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AndreyB
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Re: Hello there!

Post by AndreyB »

andreika wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:32 pm
To use their service, you'll need pick&place (CPL) and BOM files in addition to gerbers...
"you'll need pick&place" is a bit vague. Does it translate into "you'll need TO MAKE YOUR OWN pick&place files" or does it translate into "the extra files are available/will be available at XXX"?
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239

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andreika
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Re: Hello there!

Post by andreika »

AndreyB wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:43 pm
Does it translate into "you'll need TO MAKE YOUR OWN pick&place files" or does it translate into "the extra files are available/will be available at XXX"?
If Guenther makes a final decision to pre-assemble his Prometheus boards at JLCPCB and if he asks for my help, I'll try to create these files.

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