[rusEfi] 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

What engine are you torturing? Is it inside some car?
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by Spine » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:09 pm

At this time, I'm not sure what type of pickup it is.

I'll be wiring rusEFI on the spot.

I'll have all of my wiring equipment with me including "soldering butt connectors" (which are really cool - you strip the ends of the wire, slip them in and 'mesh' the wires together in the solder point, then put heat on it and it shrinks the ends to create a waterproof protection and melts the solder into the wires).

I'll be bringing my oscilloscope with me also so I can take some readings. I'm going to see if he can have a 2 foot lead on every connector (semi pre-wired) that I can tie rusEFI into.
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by russian » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:43 pm

What dates? Let's discuss this on Slack.

It sounds crazy but on same dates I would be available to help remotely.
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by Spine » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:20 pm

What dates? Let's discuss this on Slack.

It sounds crazy but on same dates I would be available to help remotely.
That would be awesome.

This will be done in Aberdeen, WA. The actual dates are still to be determined.

I'll have to get a different oil pan to get the engine to fit, I'll need the exhaust manifolds, so I think I'll cross it over to a single exhaust just to get it home (so I can use the auto-tune feature with my WBO2 sensor). I'll also need to find a wiring harness from craigslist or a junkyard for this engine.

I think it's time to get a "to-do" list created...
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by Spine » Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:26 am

Last edited by Spine on Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by kb1gtt » Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:44 am

Don't look into the datasheets for those solder shrink connectors. If you do you'll find that those are almost impossible to use correctly. The problem is that solder melts at a higher temperature than what shrink tubing can handle. For those to be used properly, you need to heat the wire, not the connector. The wire then melts the solder and causes the insulation to shrink. How you heat the wire is up to the installer to figure out. I'm assuming it requires some kind of induction heating. However that's really difficult with copper. Or perhaps a crappy connection will generate enough heat to self heat and self solder. Any now, I encourage to stay away from those. They have almost no potential purposes. They are only useful for when a low quality connection is sufficient and when labor costs are high. Put another way, they are low cost crappy connections. I suggest spending the $0.05 for the quality connection instead of spending $0.04 for these low cost crappy connections.

If you are bonding wires with solder, I highly suggest you simply install a length of shrink tube, solder the wires, then slide the shrink tube over and shrink it. However I also do not like solder for long term connections. The flux is less corrosive at lower temperatures, but it's still corrosive and you can't get it off the strands inside the wire bundle. I much prefer crimps. Those are much better for many reasons.

Have you learned about the below? I like those if you have room for them.
https://www.amazon.com/Wago-221-412-221 ... B018MGMFDI
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by Spine » Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:49 am

I've been using the soldering butt connectors for a while with a good success rate. There are a few I'll have to redo - usually when I'm not paying attention, but overall they work as described. They use a lower temp solder, and as long as you use the heat gun properly, you won't overheat the shrink tubing. I do it in stages, I heat it up till the shrink tube seals, then I let it cool for a few seconds, then go at it again till the solder melts (the wire holds the heat longer), then it's done. Sometimes I'll have to go over it a few times to let the shrink tube cool down, usually when working on the larger wire, the 16-18g wire I can do in one - two passes and it's solid after cooled.

If you want, I can upload a picture of a completed connection. You can see the solder flow through the wire and create a solid connection, and you can see that the shrink insulator is still complete (not broken/melted).

I've never seen those wago connectors before. Are they similar to a terminal block, just no crimping?
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by kb1gtt » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:30 am

The issues with the solder shrink tubes are perhaps less than obvious and perhaps it's issues are things you are less concerned with. I know my boss loves those things, as well my boss has a history that everything he sent to EMI testing has failed horribly. Everything I've sent to EMI testing has passed and I've only once had a mild problem to deal with. I've personally tried these several times. I did it on just plain wires chunks to see if they could be done well in ideal conditions. I had a variety of complaints about the finial results. There are many fairly hard to explain issues with these types of connectors, and if you use them, you're asking for a variety of fairly complicated issues to poke their head up. If you use traditional solder followed by traditional heat shrink, you'll have many less problems with your final circuit. As well you'll probably get it installed much faster. I am more familiar with those connectors than the average bear.

Those wago 221's are basically wire nuts. They are UL rated for 25A and they have DNV (or was it ABS) certs for high vibration environments. They can be used on solid strand wire, stranded wire or stranded wire with a ferrule. They can be used on 12 AWG wire and basically anything that is smaller. I have found 12AWG stranded with a ferrule is kind of hard to get inserted, as the square-ish corners of the ferrule like to drag a bit. However I've managed to get the 12AWG with ferrule inserted, but it's kind of a pain. There is an impressive video which shows how they don't really fail even if you run 150A through them. I like that they have a place where you can probe them with a multi-meter. About the only issues I have with them is that they are semi large, so you need space for them, as well they are around $0.25 while the crimp style wire nuts are more like $0.07 each, with a $200 crimp tool. So from a production stand point, the crimp style wire nuts costs less, but for many lower qty applications, the 221's are lower cost. I really like them. I do wish they had some with the flip levers in different directions, such that you could do and inline butt splice kind of arrangement instead of having the wires all come from one side. However they are nice, I like them for what they are.
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by Spine » Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:07 pm

I will definitely look into the wago style and test them to see how I like them for this application.

As for standard butt connectors, I have a couple tools for them (and a ton of connectors) - the ratchet style crimp tool and the reverse hand crimp (crimp side on the same side of the hinge as your hand). I like the ratchet style, but the two I have need adjusted as they don't crimp hard enough (and I've been too lazy to adjust them) so I've been using the hand crimp tool.

What I've been looking for is quickest and easiest - and being such a big car, space is not an issue.

Also just found this one:
https://www.amazon.com/UOHGDPY-Lever-Nu ... 3408&psc=1

Also, what do you think about the "Posi-Lock" ones?
https://www.posi-products.com/positite.html
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by Spine » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:43 pm

Did something change to the connection with the new firmware? I just downloaded it, wiped the stm32, and installed the new firmware. It boots up like it usually does (can see the LCD like before), but I can't connect at 38400. I can connect at 115200, but it's very unstable. With TunerStudio, I can't connect with anything but 115200, but if I attempt to burn anything it corrupts the stm32 and I need to wipe and reload the firmware.

TunerStudio shows the error on the bottom (with baud at 38400 and 115200):
"Invalid data received from the controller"
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by russian » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:51 pm

Limited telepathic abilities - which of two communication channels are you using and why?

I believe you can adjust baud rate setting in TS for USB/TTL and I prefer using microUSB based real USB anyway.
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by Spine » Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:45 am

Limited telepathic abilities - which of two communication channels are you using and why?

I believe you can adjust baud rate setting in TS for USB/TTL and I prefer using microUSB based real USB anyway.
On the stm32 card, I use the miniUSB for power, and use the "PROG" miniUSB on the Frankenso 0.4 board for programming. So, are you specifying to use the microUSB that is ON the stm32 for programming? (The one above the "PROG" miniUSB on Frankenso)
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by Spine » Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:36 am

Ok, so I believe I figured it out...

I used the wrong firmware; I used the "rusefi_bundle.zip" and it didn't work with TS. When I looked at all the firmware options, I tried "rusefi+bundle_frenkenso_na6.zip", and it worked great with TS.

I also don't have the "disconnects" that I had when I first started the Geo project. Very smooth system now (using the correct firmware that is).
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by kb1gtt » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:54 am

I can't seem to find the SPL-2 at wago, The SPL-2 looks very much like the 222 series. This makes me excited, because it means there is hope that we'll see the same but based on the 221 series.
https://www.wago.com/medias/Electrical- ... hment=true
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by Spine » Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:25 pm

Is there an option for multiple O2 sensors (example: left bank and right bank)?
Does the firmware now support 1 wire (oem cheap crap) O2 sensors or only wide-band still?
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by russian » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:14 am

Spine wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:25 pm
Is there an option for multiple O2 sensors (example: left bank and right bank)?
Does the firmware now support 1 wire (oem cheap crap) O2 sensors or only wide-band still?
No :( No :(

"rusefi_bundle.zip" and "rusefi+bundle_frenkenso_na6.zip" are pretty much the same thing at the moment, not sure if there could be a notable difference. I could be wrong as always :)
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by kb1gtt » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:34 am

What do you expect from NO2? Why would you use it?
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by Spine » Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:56 pm

What do you expect from NO2? Why would you use it?
I was hoping for a basic/rough AFR that can be used with TunerStudio's autotune to get a basic start. Then manually fine tune it from there.
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by kb1gtt » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:10 pm

For NO2, it takes around 30 seconds to a minute to determine an AFR. With many cells in TS, your going to spend allot in fuel to get your tune for each cell. As well, this prolonged tuning time will likely mean you run lean, which could cause problems. I would suggest a WO2 as it would be lower cost than the fuel, as well it would be less likely to destroy your engine.
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by Spine » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:51 pm

Yes, as I already have the WBO2, I'll just use it in the crossover on my exhaust (when I get that part built). I have no idea why I was even asking about the other O2 sensor...just a dumb moment I guess... lol
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by mck1117 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:11 pm

Hey, more people with LS engines in the PNW! I have a 1993 Volvo 240 with an LS swap that I'll convert to rusEfi at some point (the car was running rusEfi when it had a turbo 4 cyl). I'm up in Kirkland, and noxz on the forum is in Seattle. I could be convinced to come to the rusEfi party if it's on a weekend I'm free.

What year is the engine? Rather, which crank trigger wheel does it have? Late (post-2005 ish) engines use a 60-2 trigger wheel like tons of European engines, and are well supported. Early engines (pre-2005, like mine) use a 24x wheel which is supported in theory, but I don't think have ever actually run an engine. All LS engines a hall effect cam and crank sensor, so that's already supported.

If all you care about is getting home, then you can absolutely run the O2 sensor on one bank and use it to tune the whole engine. I'm running only a single-bank O2 sensor on my LS (wired to both O2 sensor inputs on the stock ECU to keep it happy), and things seem to be fine. It's true that I don't know what the other bank is doing, but that's probably fine ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'll eventually add a second O2 once I switch to rusEfi.

What ECU is currently in the car? If it's a pre-2005 with GM connectors still on it, then I think my ECU will plug in and it should run.

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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by Spine » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:46 pm

What year is the engine? Rather, which crank trigger wheel does it have? Late (post-2005 ish) engines use a 60-2 trigger wheel like tons of European engines, and are well supported. Early engines (pre-2005, like mine) use a 24x wheel which is supported in theory, but I don't think have ever actually run an engine. All LS engines a hall effect cam and crank sensor, so that's already supported.

If all you care about is getting home, then you can absolutely run the O2 sensor on one bank and use it to tune the whole engine. I'm running only a single-bank O2 sensor on my LS (wired to both O2 sensor inputs on the stock ECU to keep it happy), and things seem to be fine. It's true that I don't know what the other bank is doing, but that's probably fine ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'll eventually add a second O2 once I switch to rusEfi.

What ECU is currently in the car? If it's a pre-2005 with GM connectors still on it, then I think my ECU will plug in and it should run.
The engine is from a 2001 Chevy Silverado 1500. Running the O2 on one bank, interesting idea. I was going to put it in the crossover (equalizer) on the exhaust. There is no ECU in the car. It's a 1965 Impala, rolling chassis. The engine has no wiring harness or computer with it. It's just the complete engine without any computer, sensors, or wires. I'll be building the wiring harness from scratch and connecting it to my breakout box with rusEfi in it.

If you have a base tune for your LS, that could assist me a lot to get this started once I'm onsite.
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by Spine » Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:04 pm

Not sure if anyone knows about this site, but there is a LOT of information on Chevy engines that were fuel injected. This page was built specifically for engine swaps. It has pinouts for the ECMs based on years, trouble shooting, etc.

http://www.chevythunder.com/
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by Spine » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:49 pm

Ok,

So I've got two LS engines lined up. One for my Trans Am swap, and one for my Impala swap; both are complete and ready to run with harness, ECM, and accessories (alternator, water pump, etc.). One LS is drive-by-wire and the other is drive-by-cable.

My question...
1.) Does rusEFI support drive-by-wire?
2.) How do you get the information from the stock ECM and copy it into rusEFI (timing, fuel ratio, etc)?

I'll be dropping these in directly with the stock ECM first and getting both vehicles running. Once that is done, then I'd like to swap out the stock ECM on my Trans Am with rusEFI so I can set it up for racing - which is why I need the answer to question #1. Question #2 is to make it easier for the initial tune once I do the ECM swap.
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by russian » Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:40 pm

1. yes see



2. you do not :( you will have to tune it from scratch since different algorithms and (simpler?) models in rusEfi
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by mck1117 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:15 pm

On #2: Russian is mostly correct, but some stuff can be close enough to get the engine at least running (though you may have to copy values over manually). The VE table for the GM ECUs does the same thing as ours, and I'd bet is certainly within 10% of what's "correct" for rusEfi to run the same engine.

For fuel the table is essentially compatible, but ignition works differently. The load axis on the GM ECU is airmass (amount of air per engine cycle), while rusEfi (currently) uses manifold pressure.

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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by stefanst » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:31 am

Spine wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:49 pm
Ok,

So I've got two LS engines lined up. One for my Trans Am swap, and one for my Impala swap; both are complete and ready to run with harness, ECM, and accessories (alternator, water pump, etc.). One LS is drive-by-wire and the other is drive-by-cable.

My question...
1.) Does rusEFI support drive-by-wire?
2.) How do you get the information from the stock ECM and copy it into rusEFI (timing, fuel ratio, etc)?

I'll be dropping these in directly with the stock ECM first and getting both vehicles running. Once that is done, then I'd like to swap out the stock ECM on my Trans Am with rusEFI so I can set it up for racing - which is why I need the answer to question #1. Question #2 is to make it easier for the initial tune once I do the ECM swap.
There's also the super-hard method: Record what a stock ECU does by stimulating its' inputs. Either while actually running the engine, or by stimulating the inputs with a hardware stimulator and then read the outputs (as long as they're digital, like injector or ignition) with a logic analyzer. That should get you a usable facsimile of a VE and ignition table.

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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by mck1117 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:14 pm

By the way, I have an HPTuners license (and interface), so I can at least read GM ECUs, and view tunes uploaded by others to the HPT website. So I can rip particular maps (VE, injector compensation, etc) out of factory tunes if you're interested.

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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by Spine » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:59 pm

Jersey City, NJ?!? I go to MahWah, NJ often (at least 6-8 times a year) for work. Mildly amusing.

Anyway, I'm going to put the drive-by-wire on my 1965 Impala and continue to run the stock ECM.

However, on my 1985 TransAm, I'm going to put the drive-by-cable and eventually install the rusEFI system. This will be my autocross/drift car. I'm converting it from automatic to 4speed manual.
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by Spine » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:03 pm

mck1117 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:14 pm
By the way, I have an HPTuners license (and interface), so I can at least read GM ECUs, and view tunes uploaded by others to the HPT website. So I can rip particular maps (VE, injector compensation, etc) out of factory tunes if you're interested.
Yes, I would be interested - however I don't have a way to grab the factory tune. I have a tunerstudio license with datalogger, but that's about all I have.
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Re: 1990 Geo Storm GSI - Advice/Suggestions? #18

Post by mck1117 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:08 pm

I can certainly find/dump a stock 4.8 or 5.3 (or whatever) tune. Which cam is in each car? Stock GM truck?

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