cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Hardware inside and outside of the ECU
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AndreyB
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option?

Post by AndreyB »

KLAS wrote:i've been told GM uses ion sensing here in Europe in some Opel engines, like this one
this looks similar to the SAAB ignition cassete? the obvious down side of the cassete is that it would be impossible to fit it on a different engine. I wish there was some individual coil option from a standart ion sensing setup, ideally with some smart and documented coils :lol:
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option?

Post by KLAS »

yes, similar, i guess because GM once bought SAAB. maybe you could remove the little box and "free" the rest of the cassete from unneeded plastic? the connector from the box to the cassete looks like the regular GM connectors.
i know SAAB used such rails, but also seperate boxes for ion sensing. maybe such would be of any help?

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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option?

Post by AndreyB »

KLAS wrote:i know SAAB used such rails, but also seperate boxes for ion sensing. maybe such would be of any help?
need more specific keywords. exact part numbers or model/year of the vehicle?
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option?

Post by Abricos »


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andreika
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option?

Post by andreika »

To get an idea of what it does:
ion-sensing-module-diagram.gif
ion-sensing-module-diagram.gif (53.31 KiB) Viewed 4642 times
It processes an analog ion signal directly from coils and outputs 2 digital signals for ECU: Knock detection & C.Q. (combustion quality).

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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option?

Post by mck1117 »

And here's a schematic for the older T7 ignition casette:

Image

Here's a page with a description of some of the functionality: http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=SaabCdiCassette

I may go to the junkyard this weekend and grab the ignition system off of a 2003+ 9-3, and crack the module open.

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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option?

Post by AndreyB »

mck1117 wrote:ignition system off of a 2003+ 9-3, and crack the module open.
Would love to see how it looks inside!
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option?

Post by KLAS »

Abricos wrote:maybe
https://www.eeuroparts.com/Parts/35189/Ionization-Module-55352173/

SAAB 55352173
SAAB: 9-3 2005-11
yes, that's the one

and i found this company http://www.sensata.com/sensors/automotive-pressure-sensor-cpos.htm
looks like they make pressure only sensors for IC engines, don't know how much they are

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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option?

Post by Abricos »

VW Audi Glow plug conector with wire harness for the "smart" glow plugs used on the 2.0L Common-Rail
OEM Part Number: 03L971785A? or maybe 04L971785?

Same connector pictured with and without end plastic cover
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option?

Post by Abricos »

in first post link (it seems to me very important) does not work as the web site does not exist ...
New Bitmap Image.bmp
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CR glow plug pinout:
1. power (3v if I'm reading this bentley notations correctly)
2. signal to ecu
3. ground
4. glow from J179 automatic glow time control module
Attachments
en-psg-pressure-sensor-glow-plug.pdf
(1.27 MiB) Downloaded 99 times
Last edited by Abricos on Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option?

Post by Abricos »

It looks like several companies are working together on the same sensor - pictured as separate pressure sensor on the right, but in reality integrated into smart diesel glow plug.
https://hirschmann-automotive.com
https://www.hidria.com
https://www.beruparts.eu
https://www.borgwarner.com
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Attached a PDF about smart spark plug which is another option.
Pressure_Model_6117B.pdf
(270.02 KiB) Downloaded 79 times

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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option?

Post by AndreyB »

FB says "The Skyactiv X reportedly features realtime individual cylinder pressure monitoring. A pressure sensor is mounted in the cylinder. US Patent 9,719,441 shows a lot of detail on this subject."

This engine is not available in US yet and they might have only started selling it https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a27750433/mazda-skyactiv-x-engine-europe-mpg/
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by AndreyB »

Some dimensions and installation example see https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1630&p=34911#p34911
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by AndreyB »

@andreika is wondering if Vauxhall / opel 55577669 / opel 2081555 harness uses the same connector. Sweet thing about the Opel harness is that we get 4 plugs for about $20 used!

GM glow plug part numbers 55579436 and 55590467, opel PN 1214087

Thread Size M9x1.0mm
Spanner Size 12 mm. "Spanner" means wrench in British :)
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by AndreyB »

Maybe we have the first video of the sensor output? Very unclear

The formula in first message says voltage goes up with pressure, why do we have such a clear drop in voltage? That's if we have randomly chosen good trigger setting on oscilloscope.



update:


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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by puff »

100ns per division? so, the drop duration is even below 100ns? do you know what's inside that sensor? it's design? may be, there is a certain ciruitry there which causes that drop?
it's a cylinder sensor, which means - the measurements should have a certain pattern (according to engine cycle)?
I'd try to figure out the duration of the whole cycle at your idle and make the time scale of the scope match it.

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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by kb1gtt »

Can you capture a picture with a sync pulse at TDC?
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by AndreyB »

kb1gtt wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:49 am
Can you capture a picture with a sync pulse at TDC?
I think what we can is add second probe for cam sensor and have complete revolution on the screen?
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by Abricos »

jsss-8-75-2019.pdf
(5.31 MiB) Downloaded 47 times
it says "All sensor concepts are designed with respect to the geometrical dimensions and the requirements of an existing test bench with a diesel engine (1.6 L TDI, 66 kW, VW). The diesel works as a compression-ignition engine and therefore the sensors can be mounted in the glow plug bore of one cylinder without any engine modification. As a reference, a glow plug pressure sensor (PSG type, accuracy ±2 % FS, Beru) was mounted in a second cylinder, allowing a comparison of pressure profiles of nearly identical combustion cycles. Our sensor prototypes were tested at various engine speeds (1800–3600 rpm) and torque values (0–200 Nm).

For long-term runs, a test bench with a gasoline engine (air-cooled V-Twin, 479 cc, 11.8 kW, Briggs & Stratton) was used.


Different sensor concepts for time-resolved cylinder pressure monitoring of combustion engines are realized and evaluated in this paper. We distinguish a non-intrusive form of measurement outside the cylinder, performed by means of a force compression rod from intrusive, real in-cylinder measurement by means of pressure membrane sensors being exposed to the hot combustion process. The force compression rod has the shape of a sine wave with thinner zones equipped with highly sensitive foil strain gauges that experience a relatively moderate temperature level of 120 ∘C. The sensor rod delivers a relative pressure value that may be influenced by neighbour cylinders due to mechanical coupling. For the intrusive sensor type, two different materials for the membrane-type sensor element were simulated and tested, one based on the ceramic zirconia and the other based on stainless steel. Due to the higher thermal conductivity of steel, the element experiences only 200 ∘C while the zirconia element reaches 300 ∘C. Metallic chromium thin films with high strain sensitivity (gauge factor of 15) and high-temperature capability were deposited on the membranes and subsequently structured to a Wheatstone bridge. The pressure evolution can be measured with both types in full detail, comparable to the signals of test bench cylinder pressure sensors. For the preferential steel-based sensor type, a reliable laser-welded electrical connection between the thin films on the membrane and a copper wire was developed. The in-cylinder pressure sensors were tested both on a diesel test bench and on a gas-fired engine. On the latter, an endurance test with 20 million cycles was passed. Reliable cylinder pressure sensors with a minimum of internal components are thus provided. The signals will be processed inside the sensor housing to provide analysis and aggregated data, i.e. mass fraction burned (MFB50) and other parameters as an output to allow for smart combustion control.
"

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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by Abricos »

Control Using an In-Cylinder Pressure Sensor for a Common-Rail Direct Injection Diesel Engine
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by andreika »

russian wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:17 am
Maybe we have the first video of the sensor output? Very unclear
Here's more real and clear data. :roll:
I've measured the response of glow plug 03L905061F 03L905061 (beru PSG007) using the compressed air.
pressure01.JPG
pressure01.JPG (75.5 KiB) Viewed 2858 times
Power consumption current (5V) = ~5mA
Output voltage (atmospheric pressure) = 1.7V
Output voltage (pressure ~7-8 bar) = 1.8V
Ouput noise level = ~20mV (ver low, equals to the power source noise level)
pressure02.JPG
pressure02.JPG (118.29 KiB) Viewed 2858 times
When pushing the central rod mechanically, the output voltage increases linearly up to 2V and above. If attempted to pull the rod out, the output voltage decreases to 1.6V and below. Also after releasing the mechanical spring "bouncing" effect is clearly seen.

The response to mechanical pressure:
pressure03.JPG
pressure03.JPG (120.79 KiB) Viewed 2858 times
The presumable formula is:
V = (0.34+0.0025*P)*Vs

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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by andreika »

PN is 03L905061F see more info right above :)

Here's our first real data from the pressure sensor installed in a car, cranking (no combustion), 3rd cylinder:
pressure04.JPG
pressure04.JPG (182.42 KiB) Viewed 2444 times
If we measure the peak pressure moment, we get 208ms for 252ms period, it's 360*208/252 = 297 degrees from the sync. point, or 297-180-117 = 0 degrees, TDC! :D (117 is my trigger offset)



P.S. The glow plug is the same, VW 03L905061F.

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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by andreika »

Now we have the real first pressure sensor + ion sense data on running engine! 8-)



The engine was idling at ~1200-1300 RPM with the short throttle acceleration up to 3000 RPM.
Here's the saved oscilloscope waveform for those playing at home:
running_pressure_sensor+ion_sense.wfm.zip
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Here's the rusEFI log file: And a couple of screenshots:
screen.png
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screen2.png
screen2.png (63.68 KiB) Viewed 2385 times
Legend:
Magenta color = ion sense,
Cyan color = pressure sensor,
Yellow color = 60-2 trigger.

The hardware setup is the same as in previous experiments, 3rd cylinder, batch ignition.

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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by XXLO »

verry good. congratulations.

You run the engine with low load.
I have read in the ion sensinig docomentations, that peak preassure point is in low load conditions hardly to find. -> only only low current at low loads.
Maybe your red line in the picture points not to peak preassure point?

"Here is an other paper of ion sense information. (i dont see it in the first post of this thread)
http://www.not2fast.com/ignition/SAEPeakfind.pdf

There is written:
"Empirical studies [7], under steady stateconditions in a dynamometer, indicate that this isapproximately true but that the model has difficultiesdescribing low load phenomena, even if data is collectedunder ideal external conditions and then averaged. Thiscomplication is due to the fact that the post flame peakessentially vanishes if the load is less than 20% MBT2(see Fig. 3). It is worth mentioning, in this context, thatnormal driving on the highway is close to the low loadsituation."
"An ion current signal sampled during a single cycle on boardthe SAAB car while driving on the highway (solid line). The enginespeed was 1500 RPM and the load was approximately 25% of MBT.There are several wide peaks in the signal and the post flame phase isnot visible. The pressure trace is shown for comparison (dashed line)."


i think this the reason why you cant see peak preassure point in the oszilloskop videos.

Too low load in idle and rev up while car is standing still."

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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by AndreyB »

andreika wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:21 pm
Now we have the real first pressure sensor + ion sense data on running engine! 8-)
Most interesting stuff is in Russian at https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=35040#p35039
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by AndreyB »

A little database of relevant glow plugs - most interesting is the fact that three different threads were used!
PSG001 - 55564163
* опель Insignia A 2.0 CDTI
* устарела, вместо неё PSG006
Overall Length [mm]: 179,9
Thread Size: M9x1,0
Voltage [V]: 4,4
Spanner Size: 12 mm
Glow Plug Design: with pressure sensor, after-glow capable, Pencil-type Glow Plug
Fitting Depth [mm]: 35
Connector type: 4 mm PIN (PSG)
Rated Current [A]: 8,5
Tightening torque to [Nm]: 10
Tightening torque from [Nm]: 8
Cone Pitch: 93
Failure Moment [Nm]: 22
GM 55564163
BERU PSG001
BERU 0103010903
4014427121831
OPEL 1826354
---------------
Insignia A 2.0 CDTI 2008-2018
Insignia MK1 2.0 CDTI 2008-2017
PSG003
* Opel Astra J/MK 1.3 CDTI
Overall Length [mm]: 132,2
Thread Size: M9x1,0
Voltage [V]: 4,4
Spanner Size: 12 mm
Glow Plug Design: with pressure sensor, after-glow capable, Pencil-type Glow Plug
Fitting Depth [mm]: 28
Connector type: 4 mm PIN (PSG)
Rated Current [A]: 8,5
Tightening torque to [Nm]: 10
Tightening torque from [Nm]: 8
Cone Pitch: 93
Failure Moment [Nm]: 22
---------------
Astra J 1.3 CDTI 2009-2019
Astra Mk6 1.3 CDTI 2009-2019
Corsa D 1.3 CDTI 2006-2019
Meriva B 1.3 CDTI 2010-2019
PSG004 - 55568366/55590466
* Опель Astra 1.7 CDTI
Overall Length [mm]: 168
Thread Size: M10x1,25
Voltage [V]: 4,4
Spanner Size: 12 mm
Glow Plug Design: with pressure sensor, after-glow capable, Pencil-type Glow Plug
Fitting Depth [mm]: 24
Connector type: 4 mm PIN (PSG)
Rated Current [A]: 25
Tightening torque to [Nm]: 20
Tightening torque from [Nm]: 15
Cone Pitch: 121
Failure Moment [Nm]: 35
GM 55568366
GM 55590466
BERU PSG004
OPEL 1214088
OPEL 1214104
---------------
Astra MK6 1.7 CDTI 2009-2019
Astra J 1.7 CDTI 2009-2018
PSG005 - 55571600
* Opel Zafira 1.6 CDTI (только)
Overall Length [mm]: 158,35
Thread Size: M10x1,0
Voltage [V]: 4,4
Supplementary Info: PSG
Spanner Size: 12 mm
Glow Plug Design: with pressure sensor, after-glow capable, Pencil-type Glow Plug
Fitting Depth [mm]: 31,4
Connector type: 4 mm PIN (PSG)
Rated Current [A]: 8,5
Tightening torque to [Nm]: 20
Tightening torque from [Nm]: 15
Cone Pitch: 93
Failure Moment [Nm]: 35
GM 55571600
BERU PSG005
4014427141709
BERU 0103010102
BERU 0103010107
OPEL 1214099
---------------
Zafira Tourer C 1.6 CDTI 2013-2019
Zafira MK3 1.6 CDTI 2013-2019
PSG006 - 55579436/55590467
* Thread Size M9x1.0
* Opel/Vauxhall 2.0 CDTI
* характеристики и размеры те же, что у 55564163
* она пришла на смену PSG001 и должна во всём совпадать с ней!
GM 55579436
GM 55590467
BERU PSG006
4014427141709
OPEL 1214087
OPEL 1214101
---------------
Astra MK6 2.0 CDTI 2009-2019
Astra J 2.0 CDTI 2009-2018
Cascada W13 2.0 CDTI 2013-2019
Insignia A 2.0 CDTI 2008-2018
Insignia MK1 2.0 CDTI 2008-2017
Zafira Tourer C 2.0 CDTI 2011-2019
Zafira MK3 2.0 CDTI 2011-2019
------------------------------------------
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Glow-Plug-with-Cylinder-Pressure-Sensor-2-0-CDTI-For-Opel-GM-55579436/372707821325?hash=item56c71e070d:g:01wAAOSwrl9dCkBg
= $101
https://www.ebay.com/itm/VAUXHALL-INSIGNIA-2-0-CDTI-A20DTH-GLOW-PLUG-PRESSURE-SENSOR-55579436-FITS-08-15/283666703111?epid=1925270380&hash=item420bda6307:g:3k0AAOSwjT9dwxFY
= $47 (б/у)
PSG007 - 03L905061G,03L905061F
* Thread Size M10x1.0
Overall Length [mm]: 148,5
Thread Size: M10x1,0
Voltage [V]: 4,4
Spanner Size: 12 mm
Glow Plug Design: with pressure sensor, after-glow capable, Pencil-type Glow Plug
Fitting Depth [mm]: 28
Connector type: 4 mm PIN (PSG)
Tightening torque to [Nm]: 20
Tightening torque from [Nm]: 15
Cone Pitch: 63
Failure Moment [Nm]: 35
VAG 03L905061 D/E/F/G/K
BERU PSG007
* на Ауди ставят только 1 такую свечу
----------------
Audi A1 1.4/1.6 TDI
Audi A3 1.6/2.0 TDI
Audi A4 B8/B9 2.0/3.0 TDI
Audi A5 B8/B9 2.0/3.0 TDI
Audi A6 C7 2.0/3.0 TDI
Audi Q2 1.6/2.0 TDI
Audi Q3 2.0 TDI
Audi Q5 2.0/3.0 TDI
Audi Q7 3.0 TDI
Audi TT 2.0 TDI
Skoda Fabia 3 1.4 TDI 2014-2019
Skoda Octavia 3 1.6/2.0 TDI 2012-2019
Skoda Rapid 1.4/1.6 TDI 2015-2019
Skoda Superb 3 1.6/2.0 TDI 2015-2019
Skoda Yeti 2.0 TDI 2015-2019
VW Caddy Alltrack 4 2.0 TDI 2015-2019
VW Golf 1.6/2.0 TDI 2014-2019
VW Golf 6 2.0 TDI 2008-2013
VW Golf 7 1.6/2.0 TDI 2012-2019
VW Jetta Mk5 2.0 TDI 2005-2010
VW Jetta Mk6 2.0 TDI 2011-2019
VW Passat B8 1.6/2.0 TDI 2014-2019
VW Polo 5 1.4 TDI 2014-2019
VW Tiguan 1 2.0 TDI 2015-2019
VW Tuareg 1/2 3.0 TDI 2004-2019
VW Touran 2 1.6/2.0 TDI 2015-2019
VW Transporter T6 2.0 TDI 2015-2019
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Re: cheap cylinder pressure sensor option - smart diesel glow plug with pressure sensor

Post by AndreyB »

Different size as well
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