Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Hardware inside and outside of the ECU
User avatar
AndreyB
Site Admin
Posts: 11384
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Github Username: rusefillc
Slack: Andrey B

Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by AndreyB »

Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG would be is an open source PnP ECU reference Hellen One project.

All documentation at https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/Hellen121VAG

Full source code and gerbers https://github.com/rusefi/hellen121vag

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H0cZPAJFbpprgSu1Y8BiAYzXbqddvIn-Hhod4QCVQwk
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239
deaner
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:02 am

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by deaner »

I can fill this in tonight when I get home from work, if it helps any. I'm currently building a 1.8t pnp harness for a Proteus, so its relatively fresh in my mind.
Tire guy
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:02 am

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by Tire guy »

I filled out the 1.8t column. For any inaccuracies feel free to blame me :)
Bluepower
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:42 pm

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by Bluepower »

Please be aware that there are differences in pinout, in between the 1.8t ME7.5 wiring looms, depending on chassis and whether or not the engine has VVT, EGT and SAI
User avatar
AndreyB
Site Admin
Posts: 11384
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Github Username: rusefillc
Slack: Andrey B

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by AndreyB »

Bluepower wrote:
Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:38 pm
Please be aware that there are differences in pinout, in between the 1.8t ME7.5 wiring looms, depending on chassis and whether or not the engine has VVT, EGT and SAI
Yes, absolutely. That's why current column name is specifically "2000 1.8T A4"

We need people who know more about these ME7.x to propose additional columns for additional years/engines/vehicles.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239
User avatar
AndreyB
Site Admin
Posts: 11384
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Github Username: rusefillc
Slack: Andrey B

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by AndreyB »

Tire guy wrote:
Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:26 pm
I filled out the 1.8t column. For any inaccuracies feel free to blame me :)
Thank you!

It's not 1.8t column, it's specifically "2000 1.8T A4". Minor but important difference.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239
deaner
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:02 am

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by deaner »

I just filled in the 2001/ME7.5 column. My pinout was taken directly from my current pnp SEMS as well as referenced against the factory AWM engine code diagram. The only discrepancy I'm seeing between the two already filled in, are for Crank Sensor polarity. Ive never put a multimeter on my sensor but I trust my current SEMS supplied pinout.

Quick rundown between the 3 model changes with the B5 A4s.....
96-99- DBC, NBO2, no vvt, no canbus, no MFA in cluster, no EPC... AEB engine code
2000- DBW, NBO2, no vvt, canbus, MFA in cluster, no EPC....ATW engine code.
2001- DBW, WBO2, VVT, canbus, MFA in cluster, has EPC....AWM engine code.
2002+ are technically B6, but for all intents and purposes, they are the same minus the returnless fuel system, immobilizer and electronically controlled thermostat.

I would strongly recommend pinning according to the WBO2 ecu as the harness already has stuff for WB, VVT, Canbus, etc already there. My personal car is a 2000 that I did a wideband ME7.5 swap on a few years ago and I tuned the factory ecu, then went to SEMS like 2 years ago. Wideband conversions on these cars are popular as there is eff all for narrowband tunes. The pinouts for WBO2 ecus like I posted in the spreadsheet work for VWs of the same generation, so later MK4.

A thought to add, is the 3.2 VR6(R32, A3) ME7.1 pinout is extremely close. We normally have to move like 2 pins around when using SEM with them, other than those couple pins for keyed ignition and injector outputs, the jumper harnesses between 1.8 is basically the same as the 3.2 and I think the 2.7tt as well. May be worth looking into adding the circuit on the PCB to incorporate that too? Theyre in unused locations on the 121pin connector, so theres no interference when used on a 1.8t.

Hope this helps!
User avatar
AndreyB
Site Admin
Posts: 11384
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Github Username: rusefillc
Slack: Andrey B

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by AndreyB »

https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239
Tire guy
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:02 am

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by Tire guy »

deaner wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:45 am
I just filled in the 2001/ME7.5 column. My pinout was taken directly from my current pnp SEMS as well as referenced against the factory AWM engine code diagram. The only discrepancy I'm seeing between the two already filled in, are for Crank Sensor polarity. Ive never put a multimeter on my sensor but I trust my current SEMS supplied pinout.
Honestly I just guessed the polarity based on wire colors. I would totally trust you on this one.
Good mention of vr6 and 2.7! It seems VR6 swaps are getting more popular, I'm sure there'd be a lot of guys wanting to go standalone on those.
mck1117
running engine in first post
running engine in first post
Posts: 868
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:05 am
Location: Seattle-ish

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by mck1117 »

deaner wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:45 am
I just filled in the 2001/ME7.5 column. My pinout was taken directly from my current pnp SEMS as well as referenced against the factory AWM engine code diagram. The only discrepancy I'm seeing between the two already filled in, are for Crank Sensor polarity. Ive never put a multimeter on my sensor but I trust my current SEMS supplied pinout.
VR sensor polarity can be flipped in software, no problem there
User avatar
andreika
donator
donator
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:35 pm
Location: Kiev

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by andreika »

Currently we have the following plan for the power supply:
1) use Pin #3 as vBatt input to detect if the ignition switch is on (using EFI_MAIN_RELAY_CONTROL);
2) use Pin #121 as +12V raw power for the board (20A fuse on VAG B5);
3) use Pin #21 to control the main relay (using vBatt input);
4) use Pin #62 as V12_PERM for VBAT (RTC backup power);
Any objections or proposals? :roll:
User avatar
AndreyB
Site Admin
Posts: 11384
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Github Username: rusefillc
Slack: Andrey B

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by AndreyB »

https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/VAG-B5#2001-18t and https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/VAG-B5#2005-18t added

I will lock the spreadsheets for edits in 46 hours from now so whoever is interested to help please do so, in 46 hours I will make a best possible quick effort of the pinout and we will make forward potentially with not complete compatibility for first revision.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239
Tire guy
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:02 am

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by Tire guy »

didn't have time to fill out others yet but did take a quick looksie at 2.8, 2.7t, 3.0, 4.2 and 2.5.
Btw AndreyB, can you add a 2.5 from let's say 2006 jetta? Could be either BGP or BGQ eng code. Only difference between those 2 was BGQ is Cali emission and has 3rd lambda sensor in the cat. One of those 3 sensors is wideband. I have a jetta mule for testing :twisted: unfortunately it's auto.
Can't speak for all years, all models but going off the diagrams supplied by Andrey.
2.8 and 2.7t don't have a main relay. They get switched +12V from ignition switch thru:
2.8-- 15A fuse into pin #40
2.7t-- 20A fuse into pin #3
pins 21, 23 and 121 unused.

3.0, 4.2 and 2.5
pin3 is switched +12V power thru main relay (20A for 3.0, 30A for 4.2, 25A for 2.5)
pin 21 gets +12v from ignition switch (ON and START) thru 10A fuse, shares circuit with dash cluster and possibly some other things like clutch switch and brake switch.
pin 23 is Main relay control.
pin 121 is unused on 3.0 and 4.2 but on 2.5 is for air injection pump valve solenoid
User avatar
AndreyB
Site Admin
Posts: 11384
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Github Username: rusefillc
Slack: Andrey B

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by AndreyB »

Right, the 2.5 engine - thank you for the reminder!

https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/Vault-Of-Vag-Info#2006-jetta-25

Speaking of testing I have to mention that testing plan is very very unclear at this point. A minimal order with two assembled boards plus three blanks is about $200 someone would have to order and it could be not me. My focus here is an open source reference KiCad Hellen design - someone would have to _really_ review the files in about two weeks and use his judgement. Hopefully anyone would be interested :)
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239
deaner
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:02 am

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by deaner »

AndreyB wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:16 pm
Right, the 2.5 engine - thank you for the reminder!

https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/wiki/Vault-Of-Vag-Info#2006-jetta-25

Speaking of testing I have to mention that testing plan is very very unclear at this point. A minimal order with two assembled boards plus three blanks is about $200 someone would have to order and it could be not me. My focus here is an open source reference KiCad Hellen design - someone would have to _really_ review the files in about two weeks and use his judgement. Hopefully anyone would be interested :)
Im def interested in doing some testing to get this going for the VAG community. Can you either post here or PM me with details on what is needed? PCB design is not something I know anything about, but Im technically savvy and have a few different cars to play with. What is a "blank?" Is that what it sounds like, a bare PCB?
deaner
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:02 am

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by deaner »

mck1117 wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:05 am
deaner wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:45 am
I just filled in the 2001/ME7.5 column. My pinout was taken directly from my current pnp SEMS as well as referenced against the factory AWM engine code diagram. The only discrepancy I'm seeing between the two already filled in, are for Crank Sensor polarity. Ive never put a multimeter on my sensor but I trust my current SEMS supplied pinout.
VR sensor polarity can be flipped in software, no problem there
Perfect!
deaner
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:02 am

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by deaner »

Tire guy wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 3:59 am
deaner wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:45 am
I just filled in the 2001/ME7.5 column. My pinout was taken directly from my current pnp SEMS as well as referenced against the factory AWM engine code diagram. The only discrepancy I'm seeing between the two already filled in, are for Crank Sensor polarity. Ive never put a multimeter on my sensor but I trust my current SEMS supplied pinout.
Honestly I just guessed the polarity based on wire colors. I would totally trust you on this one.
Good mention of vr6 and 2.7! It seems VR6 swaps are getting more popular, I'm sure there'd be a lot of guys wanting to go standalone on those.
Its all good! Looking at the diagram, I would totally agree with you! Im basing my input off of info from the manufacturer of my current ECU in the car. Mostly because they are extremely picky about information they release being correct lol. Their FW updates only really happen annually because theyre so anal about everything being perfect. Luckily as mentioned, the polarity can be set in the FW, so either way, we should be good!
User avatar
AndreyB
Site Admin
Posts: 11384
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Github Username: rusefillc
Slack: Andrey B

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by AndreyB »

deaner wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:15 am
What is a "blank?" Is that what it sounds like, a bare PCB?
Yep. They fabricate min 5 PCB but assembly min is 2. Which means that for prototypes you end up with three souvenirs.

"Test" would mean "you get a totally untested PCB and you have to decide what to do with it". The most conservative strategy would be to fabricate an adapter harness between vehicle and Hellen121 and add one wire at a time. That's what I would do, you just need a cut of harness 100% same as on your vehicle, and rusEFI 121 pin breakout board with connector.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239
deaner
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:02 am

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by deaner »

AndreyB wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:32 am
deaner wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:15 am
What is a "blank?" Is that what it sounds like, a bare PCB?
Yep. They fabricate min 5 PCB but assembly min is 2. Which means that for prototypes you end up with three souvenirs.

"Test" would mean "you get a totally untested PCB and you have to decide what to do with it". The most conservative strategy would be to fabricate an adapter harness between vehicle and Hellen121 and add one wire at a time. That's what I would do, you just need a cut of harness 100% same as on your vehicle, and rusEFI 121 pin breakout board with connector.
Ahhh I see. Makes sense. Kind of a bummer having to basically bin PCBs.

If I understand right, you're saying to run wires directly to the hellen121 from the BoB? Is the first board not going to have provisions for the 121p header? I'm in the middle of soldering a 121p BoB setup for proteus and holy crap, so much time involved lol. Would rather solder just the 121p header to the hellen121 if possible lol. Please excuse my ignorance, this is indeed my first rodeo in this realm! 🍻
User avatar
AndreyB
Site Admin
Posts: 11384
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Github Username: rusefillc
Slack: Andrey B

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by AndreyB »

Your option would work but my proposal would be different
You solder 121 to Hellen121

You do not plug 121 into real vehicle right away, you solder ANOTHER 121 to temporary test adapter between vehicle and Hellen121.

You can go brave and hook untested PCB into real vehicle but I would prefer to reduce chance of magic smoke.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239
deaner
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:02 am

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by deaner »

I think I understand lol. Could I use a Jimstim to bench test?
mck1117
running engine in first post
running engine in first post
Posts: 868
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:05 am
Location: Seattle-ish

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by mck1117 »

deaner wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:04 am
I think I understand lol. Could I use a Jimstim to bench test?
of course, but at some point somebody has to start plugging ECUs in to real cars :)
deaner
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:02 am

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by deaner »

mck1117 wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:04 am
deaner wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:04 am
I think I understand lol. Could I use a Jimstim to bench test?
of course, but at some point somebody has to start plugging ECUs in to real cars :)
Well yeah lol. After I test it wont light on fire as soon as it sees 12v....😁
mck1117
running engine in first post
running engine in first post
Posts: 868
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:05 am
Location: Seattle-ish

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by mck1117 »

A friend of mine from college has a 2002 Audi Allroad with the 2.7t. I know he'd be willing to test it out, even if a very early prototype just for partial functional testing. Only problem is that he's in Michigan and I'm in Washington, but that's solvable with some combination of USPS and Alaska Airlines.

I did also maybe ask him what he'd be willing to sell it for, since a 2.7t is just about the "maximum complexity engine" we'd like to run in the near future on rusEFI, so it would make a great testbed...
User avatar
AndreyB
Site Admin
Posts: 11384
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Github Username: rusefillc
Slack: Andrey B

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by AndreyB »

We are moving forward so I've locked spreadsheet for anonymous edits.

First three columns are now potential test mules. We have a column for current Hellen128 pinout plan, please comment here if anything does not look right. At this point the primary focus is on those three vehicles.
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239
deaner
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:02 am

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by deaner »

I would opt for the 2001 A4 pinout. Its pretty much the same thing but with VVT, traction control and WBO2. You can see the similarities with other engine codes so I assume those would be there anyway. Just thought it was worth mentioning.

On a side note, the ecu sees the TC button IIRC, so you can program it quite easily to be a control for other things. Literally a "race" button on the dash lol. Same with the cruise control stalk and it going to the ecu. Currently I have my CC "on" to switch to a higher boost table, turn on launch control, antilag and also switch on a couple of other engine safety features. Pretty slick when it's all integrated into factory controls!
User avatar
AndreyB
Site Admin
Posts: 11384
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Github Username: rusefillc
Slack: Andrey B

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by AndreyB »

I like thg his idea! please spell out which exact pins are what kind of switches. just a reminder that I do not have any VAG at my garage now nor does Andrei.

if you are looking for anything cool to happen please add DETAILS
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239
deaner
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:02 am

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by deaner »

They're shown on the 2001 pinout under "cruise control on/set/res."
User avatar
AndreyB
Site Admin
Posts: 11384
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 am
Location: Jersey City
Github Username: rusefillc
Slack: Andrey B

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by AndreyB »

deaner wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:10 pm
They're shown on the 2001 pinout under "cruise control on/set/res."
Let me blunt: I am asking for exact pin numbers because I am pretty overloaded and aux digital inputs while nice are not on top of my priority list. I really mean it - I am and I will be limiting my efforts here and some progress would only happen if there are people interested in helping. It's absolutely OK not to be interested in helping.

Would you be interested to help by providing exact pin numbers?
https://rusefi.com/s/howtocontribute
very limited telepathic abilities - please post logs & tunes where appropriate - http://rusefi.com/s/questions
my skype is arro239
deaner
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:02 am

Re: Hellen 121 ME7 for VAG PnP ECU

Post by deaner »

I understand you're busy, I was pointing out that those inputs are part of the factory ecu pinout and they are listed a couple of times in the spreadsheet. These arent inputs I added in, they're factory. I am completely interested in helping, which is why I post what I know about these exact cars. Pins are as follows...
38- switch on/off 1
57- switch on/off 2
75- SET
76- Resume
Post Reply